Lunar

Furrless Old Bunny

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me too :)
lol
but they are bad for me, so i shouldnt :P

 

Bunny

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Samgam, I'm taking you out to eat one day :D.

 

samgam

Fuzzy Teenage Bunny

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That would be amazing. You're amazing. Food's amazing. It's all amazing. =P

 

Bunny

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LOL I'm not really amazing :P. The glow is from an uhh accident <>.

 

samgam

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lol of course it is

 

LtStorm

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yeah but i have no problem with his relentless faith in science,

There's no faith involved in my adherence to science as a whole.  Otherwise it wouldn't be science, it would be religion, no?

he seems to have a problem with my belief in homeopathic remedies.

Mostly because by its own admittance homeopathy doesn't work past the Placebo Effect.  Tell me, how do homeopathic remedies work?  Do you know the process they're made by?

I agree that science is all good and well, and I rely on conventional medicine, but why cant I use homeopathic remedies too? He seems to have a problem with this, whereas I have no problem with him only accepting science is what I meant.

Oh, if you accept "conventional" medicine, I have no problem with that.  If you were a friend or family member I'd try to dissuade you away from spending money on homeopathic remedies, but as you aren't, I'm not going to tell you what to do there.
It's his choice, it just makes him a little closed minded in my opinion.

As I said, and rek said again, it's not closed-minded.  I've know what the core tenants and theories behind homeopathy are.  You brought up discredited/obsolete scientific theories earlier.  I assert that homeopathy should join those alongside phrenology and the Four Humours. 

 

Bunny

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I've know what the core tenants and theories behind homeopathy are.  You brought up discredited/obsolete scientific theories earlier.  I assert that homeopathy should join those alongside phrenology and the Four Humours. 

What are the core tenants and theories?

 

samgam

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woo! back to the topic at hand! truth be told, i hold little store in these homeopathic remedies. Though I also find science deals with faith. Faith that what's proven remains proven for the reasons they say it's proven. Never mind, I just thought of my argument and realized I used "faith" instead of "reason." Just wait, I will come up with a stable argument for my quickly made opinion yet!

 

LtStorm

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I've know what the core tenants and theories behind homeopathy are.  You brought up discredited/obsolete scientific theories earlier.  I assert that homeopathy should join those alongside phrenology and the Four Humours. 

What are the core tenants and theories?

Basically, the hypothesis (I say "hypothesis" because "theory" implies there's evidence to support it) is that water has a memory.  If you make a solution of a drug, then serially dilute it, shaking it violently at each step, it will continue to maintain its pharmacological activity despite being diluted so far that there's a statistically insignificant amount of the original substance left. 

Of course, when I say "drug," I don't mean a conventional drug that's found to treat symptoms/sources of disease/sickness.  Another tenant of homeopathy is that toxins that cause similar effects to the one being treated are what should be used to trigger the body curing itself.  While "conventional" drugs are all toxic to some degree (for example, chemotherapy's toxicity is also its active use), they're metered very carefully and used in doses where they aren't.  Which, I suppose the serial dilutions in homeopathic remedies are supposed to do the same thing.  Or dodge the FDA by the loophole that they're selling water.

Anyway, it's an interesting idea, but clinical trials have shot it down time and time again, and nothing over the Placebo Effect has been found during double blind trials where the patients and doctors both didn't know whether they were receiving/giving the medicine or a placebo. 

As I said, the "mechanism" is that water has a memory, and retains its shape around solute molecules, or something, however it's supposed to work.  One experiment with this was the use of human basophils (a type of white blood cell) that had a homeopathic solution of the anti-body that triggers them into releasing a certain chemical.  And it did.  The paper was sent to the journal Nature, and there was a debate over publishing it right away and lending credence to homeopathy by violating various laws of physics and chemistry. 

But since science is open-minded, the study was published, accompanied by a warning that it had not been peer-reviewed (i.e. repeated by other groups), and further research was pending.  At the same time, a group of scientists were dispatched to follow-up on the research, and visited the original researchers to check out their experimental method.  The experiment was repeated again under the watchful eye of the outside scientists, and it worked successfully again.

Then one of the visiting scientists noticed a caveat of the experiment, and decided to make it a "double-blind" trial for the researchers.  So the labels on the test tubes were coded, the codes wrapped in tin foil, placed in an envelope, and taped to the ceiling of the laboratory so they could not be reached.  And the experiment promptly stopped working. 

Either by deception, or just bad laboratory practices, the serial dilutions were being made into test tubes that had previously contained anti-bodies, and still did in a small but statistically significant amount.  And that's what was triggering the basophils. 

So yeah.  Those are the core tenants of homeopathy, and why homeopathy as a whole is a discredited scientific theory.

 

LtStorm

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woo! back to the topic at hand! truth be told, i hold little store in these homeopathic remedies. Though I also find science deals with faith. Faith that what's proven remains proven for the reasons they say it's proven. Never mind, I just thought of my argument and realized I used "faith" instead of "reason." Just wait, I will come up with a stable argument for my quickly made opinion yet!

Actually, there isn't faith in what's proven remaining proven.  There's currently a wildfire of debate in physics because there's evidence that the fine structure constant (alpha) of the universe may be changing over the life of the universe, namely rising very slowly.  The evidence comes from light observed from some of the most distant galaxies and stars in the universe, and shows at the time alpha was noticeably lower.  That has a lot in store for some of the theories that work with alpha, and how they need to be altered to accommodate the changing constant.

 

LtStorm

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Oh, and I just checked.  The guy that "double-blinded" the water memory experiment was James Randi, who runs the foundation named after him that currently has an offer of one million dollars on the table for any psychic or any other person who claims to be capable of magic or other supernatural abilities to prove their abilities in a rigorous trial.  They just recently had a popular psychic attempt to read people's aura's.  She didn't get the million.

 

Lilienthal

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I don't have much to add to the discussion at this point, but I'd like to add that if homeopathy is to be believed, whenever you have a glass of water, you are drinking Hitler-pee. (Godwin's law has been long overdue in this topic)

 

Bunny

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I don't have much to add to the discussion at this point, but I'd like to add that if homeopathy is to be believed, whenever you have a glass of water, you are drinking Hitler-pee. (Godwin's law has been long overdue in this topic)

Elaborate.



Storm, are you into Scientology?

 

LtStorm

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I don't have much to add to the discussion at this point, but I'd like to add that if homeopathy is to be believed, whenever you have a glass of water, you are drinking Hitler-pee. (Godwin's law has been long overdue in this topic)

Only if Hitler did jumping jacks while he was pissing.  The vigorous shaking is an important part of making a homeopathic solution!

 

LtStorm

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Storm, are you into Scientology?

...You have no fucking clue what Scientology is, do you?  It has nothing to do with science.  Not a single minute thing.  It was created by a science fiction writer who set out to prove he could make money by deluding people.  And he profoundly did prove it. 

On the highly unlikely off-chance you're referring to the original meaning of the word "scientologist," which was used to describe someone who puts blind faith in science, then no, I'm still not.  I would love to see a real psychic come forward, or an esper, or a telekinetic, or a general witch/wizard that has profound powers that can be demonstrated and quantified to some degree.  That'd be fantastic.  But it hasn't happened yet.  If you have proof of it, contact the James Randi Foundation, as I mentioned earlier they have a tidy prize for anyone who can actually perform magic or other supernatural tricks.

Incidentally, the reason the Church of Scientology is called as such is because its founder, L. Ron Hubbard, was mocking them to their faces for following the bullshit he wrote down.

 

Lilienthal

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Elaborate.

Homeopathy's key element is that a water-based solution that went through an arbitrarily large dilution still has an effect based on the active ingredients used in the original solution, hence the name "water memory." When Hitler urinated, his urine eventually entered the world's water supply. The amount of water on this planet is finite and in constant motion so one could argue that there is an arbitrarily small trace of Hitler's urine in every drop of water on the planet, since it would require an infinite volume and infinite time to remove all of this urine from a solution by dilution.

And that is why you all drink Hitler-pee every day.

This message courtesy of the Marquee button which was looking at me in a funny way whilst I was typing it up.

Edit:
Only if Hitler did jumping jacks while he was pissing.  The vigorous shaking is an important part of making a homeopathic solution!

One could argue that the drainage system took care of that.

 

LtStorm

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Elaborate.

Homeopathy's key element is that a water-based solution that went through an arbitrarily large dilution still has an effect based on the active ingredients used in the original solution, hence the name "water memory." When Hitler urinated, his urine eventually entered the world's water supply. The amount of water on this planet is finite and in constant motion so one could argue that there is an arbitrarily small trace of Hitler's urine in every drop of water on the planet, since it would require an infinite volume and infinite time to remove all of this urine from a solution by dilution.

And that is why you all drink Hitler-pee every day.

This message courtesy of the Marquee button which was looking at me in a funny way whilst I was typing it up.

Edit:
Only if Hitler did jumping jacks while he was pissing.  The vigorous shaking is an important part of making a homeopathic solution!

One could argue that the drainage system took care of that.

You're starting to fall into a statistical argument here.  Similar to this, it's entirely plausible that every breath we take contains some of the same air that was in Caesar's last breath.  Not every breath he took, just his last breath.  Just based on the fact he exhaled 4L of air, and based on gas mechanics it's dispersed over the entire planet by this point. 

Eventually all of the piss from Hitler--probably already--will have infiltrated most water supplies on the planet. 

 

Lilienthal

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You're starting to fall into a statistical argument here.  Similar to this, it's entirely plausible that every breath we take contains some of the same air that was in Caesar's last breath.  Not every breath he took, just his last breath.  Just based on the fact he exhaled 4L of air, and based on gas mechanics it's dispersed over the entire planet by this point. 

Eventually all of the piss from Hitler--probably already--will have infiltrated most water supplies on the planet.

Of course, and because it's a statistically insignificant amount it means absolutely nothing, unless you happen to believe in homeopathy. I don't really see how they can still drink tapwater if they follow through on their reasoning.

 

Edward

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I've never placed any confidence in homeopathy. It's always struck me as somewhat childish.  "I want to get healthier and get rid of this disease/whatever, but I want to do it the easy way.'  Which, medicine is incredibly easy.  But everyone I've found, have all wanted something that required negative effort on their part.  I'm not going to say everyone who believes in it is like this, but this has been my experience with it.

A lot of them were also conspiracy nuts, who believed that the gov't is secretly mind controlling them.  Entirely unrelated, but a significant portion of them believed this, and thought that homeopathy took them to 'freedom'.

 

Bunny

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@LtStorm Lmfao, you've intrigued me about the whole Scientology (as a religion) crap. Can you cite that [regarding the science fiction writer]?

About the Hitler pee - I thought about that (just not from a Hitler standpoint) a while ago. I think, that all of the water would evaporate, and the bullshit would be what stayed behind. Then again, it would be in the air so rain water would still be contaminated.... lucky pee is sterile?

 

Lilienthal

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About the Hitler pee - I thought about that (just not from a Hitler standpoint) a while ago. I think, that all of the water would evaporate, and the bullshit would be what stayed behind. Then again, it would be in the air so rain water would still be contaminated.... lucky pee is sterile?

Do you mean the bullshit would stay in the oceans or on land?

 

LtStorm

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@LtStorm Lmfao, you've intrigued me about the whole Scientology (as a religion) crap. Can you cite that [regarding the science fiction writer]?

What, the fact that L. Ron Hubbard, a sci-fi writer, created the Church of Scientology?  I wasn't aware that was any big secret that you couldn't find the answer to with a quick Google search. 

He's also noted for at one point saying,

Quote from L. Ron Hubbard
"If you want to make a little money, write a book. If you want to make a lot of money, create a religion."

So yeah.

 

Bunny

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About the Hitler pee - I thought about that (just not from a Hitler standpoint) a while ago. I think, that all of the water would evaporate, and the bullshit would be what stayed behind. Then again, it would be in the air so rain water would still be contaminated.... lucky pee is sterile?

Do you mean the bullshit would stay in the oceans or on land?

Well I'd assume that it would be used by plants and animals, who would then die and be used as well. I think we're losing water...


@LtStorm Lmfao, you've intrigued me about the whole Scientology (as a religion) crap. Can you cite that [regarding the science fiction writer]?

What, the fact that L. Ron Hubbard, a sci-fi writer, created the Church of Scientology?  I wasn't aware that was any big secret that you couldn't find the answer to with a quick Google search. 

He's also noted for at one point saying,

Quote from L. Ron Hubbard
"If you want to make a little money, write a book. If you want to make a lot of money, create a religion."

So yeah.

Oh wow. Didnt get that the first time, sorry. Kinda makes me want to go stir some shithead up....

 

samgam

Fuzzy Teenage Bunny

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I would love it if I created a religion I knew to be completely false and tons of people still thought it the truth and believed in it after I died. That would be amazing. So amazing. *now has a new goal in life*

 

Bunny

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I would love it if I created a religion I knew to be completely false and tons of people still thought it the truth and believed in it after I died. That would be amazing. So amazing. *now has a new goal in life*

Write a book!! XD

 

samgam

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Many books. All at least partially fictional, but the masses don't have to know that ^_^

 

LtStorm

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We really should get this topic going again.  Before certain asshole barged in there was a pretty good discussion going.

 

Edward

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What are the thought processes that go on behind belief in this sort of stuff?

 

Bunny

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We really should get this topic going again.  Before certain asshole barged in there was a pretty good discussion going.

Lol before you go pointing fingers, more than one person contributed to the hostility which killed this topic!

What are the thought processes that go on behind belief in this sort of stuff?

That it's not chemical, so it can't have side effects and must therefore be healthier (organic, not chemical = healthy to most) - more beneficial. Some do it thinking it's greener or it saves "animal testing".

 

LtStorm

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Quote
That it's not chemical, so it can't have side effects and must therefore be healthier (organic, not chemical = healthy to most) - more beneficial. Some do it thinking it's greener or it saves "animal testing".

Well, the modern homeopathic movement may consider it to not be chemical based, but historically that's exactly what it was; it was based on a theory of a physical effect--water memory.  A discredited theory that's been disproven time and time again.  Which is why it gets attacked so much. 

It's greener in the respect that it's greener to never turn your car's engine on than it is to drive a hybrid.  I guess it does save on animal testing, but I'm against animal testing for any pharmaceuticals or cosmetics.

 

Edward

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Does warm milk actually help you fall asleep?  Or is it a placebo effect?

 

Bunny

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LOL.

IF it helps you sleep I think it's more of a comfort related thing...which COULD be attributed to the placebo effect if milk doesnt have any ability to induce tiredness in itself (like a . I think if it does it's because we've been fed "milk" as a baby and the similarities might be comforting and relaxing, helping us fall asleep better.

 

Lilienthal

Growing Baby Bunny

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Does warm milk actually help you fall asleep?  Or is it a placebo effect?

NY Times says a bit of both.

 

Triss

Fluffy Baby Bunny

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I'm definitely not a believer of homeopathy. I tried a few homeopathic drugs in the past and in my opinion they're just placebo. They didn't help in healing my cold at all. To be honest, homeopathic products are quite expensive in my country so buying them is basically a waste of money. On the other hand, there's medical evidence that natural medicine (for instance using particular herbs) can be helpful in treating some diseases.

 



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Nameless (LtStorm) is a Fan Fictionist who has made 577 posts since joining Creative Burrow on 02:21pm Sat, May 9, 2009. LtStorm was invited by no one.

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