I’ll admit it — I’m not rich. So I pick up a few forum post­ing jobs here and there, and hav­ing recently dis­cov­ered PaidForumPosting.com as another poten­tial client I rushed off to fill out an application.

Big mis­take.


 

I started by enter­ing the usual info — name and email — and received the cus­tom­ary “acti­vate your account” response. So far, so good.

I acti­vated the account and received my sec­ond response — an entreaty to review a set of gram­mar and spelling rules. After I signed off on those I had to make SEVEN posts on their mock-up forum, each post being “no less than 25 words”.

 
The Rules of PaidForumPosting

The rules them­selves were con­fus­ing and poorly-written, a hint of the sav­age tri­als I would be fac­ing in the near future, but I ignored my tin­gling Spidey-sense and forged ahead. In fact, in try­ing to find the orig­i­nal set of gram­mar rules I just checked my email files and the link seems to have dis­ap­peared … odd …

So I did my posts (exactly 2 new threads and 5 responses as stip­u­lated), with my 8th post being an acknowl­edge­ment on yet ANOTHER thread that I had fin­ished my posts. I was now informed that I had to wait for fur­ther instruc­tions, so I sat on the floor and waited.

Three days later I got an email inform­ing me I was now a “Starter” and instruct­ing me to review The Rules.

*Omi­nous chord*

They started with the “PFP Glos­sary” … and quickly devolved into a dystopian night­mare. There was no rhyme or rea­son, no order, no log­i­cal flow. Who­ever drafted these rules evi­dently never did a stint as a tech­ni­cal writer.

To my mind, a mind that has been respon­si­ble for the cre­ation over 30,000 forum posts, 700 paid arti­cles, a pub­lished, highly-received book and sev­eral self-published books over a span of almost 20 years, this was insanity.

My head is start­ing to swim …





The rest of the rules make even less sense, and are arranged in an order that only an anar­chist could love. Total dis­ar­ray. Total con­fu­sion. It’s also stated that the Admin and Mods take a dim view of peo­ple email­ing them for help — any request for such help is to included in the Job Talk Thread.

So I’m get­ting the impres­sion that for every job you take, even if it’s just to post a few replies on a cat-lover forum, you have to cre­ate this mas­sive elec­tronic paper trail. But wait — that’s not all! They also use a strange code to indi­cate what you’re doing, some­thing along the lines of “75/25, 08/03, sec­onds at bat, 50%, all in”. WTF?!?

After I signed off on the rules (I wasn’t going to NOT sign off on them after all this trou­ble!) I was informed that I was now a “Trainee”! I would remain a Trainee until at least one month passed and I had taken at least 7 jobs. Then I would be pro­moted to full Team Mem­ber status.


More Jobs Than Writers?

So at this point I’ve seen that there are more jobs than will­ing writ­ers on this site; in fact, they are hav­ing some prob­lems keep­ing clients because the jobs are going unfilled. Could it be because the new writ­ers are so totally baf­fled by this process? I mean, just as a quick exam­ple — you are NOT allowed to use “LOL” or post a smi­ley on any reply you make for a client. You also have to cre­ate a Microsoft spread­sheet to keep track of your post­ing “rhythm” — you can’t “flood” the thread with replies, but have to make it seem “nat­ural” by spac­ing it out. If you have a job that calls for 10 posts and 2 threads over the course of 6 days, you have to cal­cu­late and post so that you do one thread and one post on day #1, 2 posts each day on days #2 — 3, another thread (your sec­ond) and one post on day#4,  and two posts each on days #5 and 6.

Sim­ple, huh?

You also have to con­stantly update your OP in the PFP forum to reflect exactly what you do every day, for every job that you’re on. Did I men­tion that you also have to assume pen-names for jobs, such that you may be post­ing on the same forum under 4 dif­fer­ent names? And that each name has to have a sep­a­rate email address? And that you may NEVER speak directly with either a forum admin or mod, OR a MEMBER of that client forum?

Whoa, wait — this is too much to take in …

THIS JUST IN !!!

A new thread titled “Com­pany Break­down” appeared today. I rushed to read it, won­der­ing if the com­pany was able to call AAA or their psy­chi­a­trist in time. Turns out it is a list of the company’s expec­ta­tions for each type of post a writer makes — forum, blog, Twit­ter, arti­cle, etc.

How dis­ap­point­ing!

Again, it’s a mish-mash of “ask if you don’t know” and a list­ing of all the lay­ers of peo­ple above you that you can go to for help. Well, hello! — you wouldn’t NEED to seek help if all these rules and reg­u­la­tions were either clar­i­fied or, prefer­ably, eliminated.


An Offer of Help

It isn’t just my schizoid nature vent­ing, either — there are oth­ers that aren’t happy with the PFP set-up. I know. I’ve been in con­tact with them. One of them even exchanged a few long emails with me, let­ting me know that my ini­tial intu­itive impres­sions were cor­rect. Whether it was this per­son that relayed the fact of this post exist­ing to the Admin of PFP hardly mat­ters at this point, because …


The End Before The Beginning

And so it has come full-circle: I’ve had to edit this post because I’ve been threat­ened with a DMCA take-down action for post­ing “inter­nal com­pany policy”.

Oh, and I’ve also been dis­qual­i­fied as a poten­tial writer.

This seems to be the modus of this com­pany: if you don’t sing the com­pany somg you’re black­listed. I under­stand that post­ing word-for-word rules in this post was wrong on my part; I freely acknowl­edge my guilt. I’ve taken down the offend­ing sec­tions, and did so as soon as I received the request­ing email. Now it’s time for some oth­ers to freely admit that their meth­ods of writer intim­i­da­tion are out­dated and uneth­i­cal, and that a per­son who can­not cre­ate a para­graph with­out mul­ti­ple spelling and gram­mar mis­takes - an Admin, no less - has at best a vested inter­est in writ­ing and by exten­sion, writers.

I wish you luck and much suc­cess, PFP, with your trial-balloon clients, your over-bearing rule-set and your syco­phan­tic mem­ber­ship. For those writ­ers who keep their heads down toil­ing for twenty cents a post, please real­ize there is more out there than that. And for the sheep that meekly and blindly obey the Master’s orders, may you get what you so richly deserve.

So . . . I am guessing here, but you are not looking to get bonus points by encouraging me to sign up?
Is that right?
Hmm. So they were paying like NY Times freelance rates? (Does NYT use freelancers anyway?)
And I am further assuming you do not see this as a new cornerstone for your writing career?
Seriously, interesting post. You have warned me away.
Now if I was paranoid I would think you were just keeping them for yourself.
No I am not quoting your post in my reply btw. For obvious reasons.
Ryder13

Ryder13 (07:05pm Mon, Dec  3, 2012)

So . . . I am guessing here, but you are not looking to get bonus points by encouraging me to sign up?
Is that right?
Hmm. So they were paying like NY Times freelance rates? (Does NYT use freelancers anyway?)
And I am further assuming you do not see this as a new cornerstone for your writing career?
Seriously, interesting post. You have warned me away.
Now if I was paranoid I would think you were just keeping them for yourself.
No I am not quoting your post in my reply btw. For obvious reasons.
Ryder13

Heh, heh ...

The NY Times paid freelancers a flat $200/day rate up until recently - not sure what they pay now. And yes, they use them, or at least used them - most of my info about them is a year or so old.

I wouldn't encourage my worst enemy to sign up with PFP - not unless they also enjoyed being spanked with a limp carrot by an ugly guy dressed in a bunny outfit.



I don't see it as a cornerstone of my career, but had I taken it it surely would have been my headstone.

I'll give the quick version of what I was going to post on your site....

I worked for KickStart Your Forums years ago, which was later picked up by PaidForumPosting. The format is really, really old, but it was the standard back then. There weren't easy scripts that would record everything automatically like READ WEBSITES DESCRIPTION!!!!!!. Everything was manual and yes, you would accept very specific jobs that required a certain number of threads and spread out over set days. They paid better, but it was very laborious. It was the standard set up back then, though, and it doesn't look like this particular site is moving beyond it yet. I was going to sign up through PFP a while back when I was looking to pick up work again, but they apparently had *too many* writers at that point. Meh, no loss.

QuirkyJessi (09:29pm Mon, Dec  3, 2012)

I'll give the quick version of what I was going to post on your site....

I worked for KickStart Your Forums years ago, which was later picked up by PaidForumPosting. The format is really, really old, but it was the standard back then. There weren't easy scripts that would record everything automatically like READ WEBSITES DESCRIPTION!!!!!!. Everything was manual and yes, you would accept very specific jobs that required a certain number of threads and spread out over set days. They paid better, but it was very laborious. It was the standard set up back then, though, and it doesn't look like this particular site is moving beyond it yet. I was going to sign up through PFP a while back when I was looking to pick up work again, but they apparently had *too many* writers at that point. Meh, no loss.

Thanks, Jessi - that explains their Model T operating system.

Like you said - no loss. Now I can work on that new book some more - 50 Maids That Play.

LOL, I really thought I would never hear about PFP ever again. So it looks like our good Sifu has got his foot snagged by accident. Let me tell you about my experience with PFP.

I met the second-in-command in another forum. She suggested that I give PFP a try. So I did. Yes, the induction process was somewhat convoluted. Can't remember all the gory details. However if you imagine the kind of orientation program devised by an all-girls residential school, you might just get some inkling about what it's like.

Incidentally, I mentioned all-girls residential school on purpose. PFP, at that time, was 100% run by females. If I want to be uncharitable, I would say that it was run by 40-year-old virgins who get their rocks off by grinding their high heels into the crotch of any male unlucky enough to get within striking distance because that's probably all they knew what to do with male genitals. However, since I am not such an unfeeling brute, I will just say that the owners seem to be a tad strict about things.

Like the 25-word rule. It's a very strict rule. No more and no less.

I was accepted. Finished my probation. Merrily took jobs left, right and center. Yes, there were lots more jobs than workers. Then I dropped a bombshell. To finish one job in a hurry, I said that I was going to do some carpet-bombing posting. Not that I did. I just said I wanted to, metaphorically speaking.

I got a rebuke. Post as specified. No faster and no slower. Then there was something about a sister site. Can't remember exactly what. I made a joke about it. In my usual way. No go. It's a dirty joke. Go and wash your mouth out with soap.

The last straw was when I talked about posting in a natural way. Like when the most appropriate response was LOL, I said I would post LOL. No way. 25 words mean exactly 25 words. No more and no less.

By that time, the bile had already risen up to the top of my throat. So I quit on the spot. I think I left behind about 100usd in unclaimed wages. Didn't even give it a second thought.

So for anyone who are prepared to grovel at the feet another person for the sake of 00.25usd per forum post, then I heartily recommend working for PFP. Who knows, you might even get an orgasm or two when you are put in your place with words which are far from minced.

For the rest of us, I think there's more to life than just being ground under someone's heels.

You guys are completely exaggerating.  I'm sorry that you had bad experiences but PFP has been around for as long as it has because of those rules.  Is there a learning curve?  Sure there is, but the rules are there because people couldn't seem to do the common sense thing on their own.

I work for PFP and have for a number of years now.  There are two things they have going for them that most other companies of this nature do not - they ALWAYS have plenty of work and they pay reliably and fast.  The reason they always have plenty of work is because of the rules.

As to saying 25 words, no more or no less, that's misleading.  Yes, the rules say at least 25 words but that's because the client base doesn't want little 'I agree' posts. 

Complaining about the 'arduous' application process is downright silly.  Making 7 posts on a forum so that the admin can see that you know how to write in English and how to make your way around a forum - are you really saying that's a difficult process?  Come on, now, get real.

As to the confusing nature of the way the rules were written, yes, I'll agree with that.  It was confusing because rules were added on as needed.  That has changed considerably, though, as they have been redone to be less confusing for new staff to understand. 

While there is definitely a learning curve to understanding how things are done at PFP, it is a good place to work if you want a lot of work and fast, reliable payments.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinon.

Might I ask how much other writing you've done? Have you worked for other paid-to-post companies? 

SifuPhil (01:16pm Mon, Dec 10, 2012)

Everyone is entitled to their own opinon.

Might I ask how much other writing you've done? Have you worked for other paid-to-post companies? 

Sure, Phil.  I worked first for a couple of small newspapers in the 1990s and I've been a freelance online ghostwriter since 1999 so I've done quite a lot of writing.   Up until recently, that was how I made my living.  I still do a little ghostwriting, but prefer to work on my own products and websites now.

I've worked for several other posting companies through the years.  Admittedly, PFP definitely has the tightest rules but they've also offered the highest per post rate I've seen.  They are also one of the few companies that has never been late with my payment.  I've worked for several that were not run as businesses, apparently, since they let a lot of us work for them but never paid us. 

Paid posting of any sort isn't something that you can make a living with, naturally.  For me, it is more of a sideline income stream that I get for participating in forums, which is something I enjoy doing.  It's an easy way to earn an extra $100-$200 per month, though.

Tina G (09:06pm Mon, Dec 10, 2012)

Sure, Phil.  I worked first for a couple of small newspapers in the 1990s and I've been a freelance online ghostwriter since 1999 so I've done quite a lot of writing.   Up until recently, that was how I made my living.  I still do a little ghostwriting, but prefer to work on my own products and websites now.

Well, that's more than decent. 

Quote

I've worked for several other posting companies through the years.  Admittedly, PFP definitely has the tightest rules but they've also offered the highest per post rate I've seen.  They are also one of the few companies that has never been late with my payment.  I've worked for several that were not run as businesses, apparently, since they let a lot of us work for them but never paid us. 

I don't know if it's even the tightness of the rules that bothers me as much as the complete lack of structure of them. I believe I also mentioned the political atmosphere that I had sensed there and had verified through multiple sources - I've encountered that before and it's something I choose not to waste my time on.

As for their rate, yes, it's good, but I also took into account the time I'd need to spend posting updates in the Work Thread (or whatever the hell it's called), keeping track of multiple personalities (something I don't do well even when I'm NOT paid to do it), creating, monitoring and deleting email addresses, being constantly urged to take jobs that I have no interest in ... all things considered, I'm happy with the service I'm with now; I have none of those worries and only a little less pay.

To me it's a good trade.

Quote

Paid posting of any sort isn't something that you can make a living with, naturally.  For me, it is more of a sideline income stream that I get for participating in forums, which is something I enjoy doing.  It's an easy way to earn an extra $100-$200 per month, though.

Certainly. I'm actually a bit ashamed to reveal that I do it at all, but times are tight and writing is pretty much my only job beside having one private martial arts student.

@Tina G

If you had worked at PFP for many years, then you were probably on the team when I was there. However I am not going to guess who you are even though there were not that many people on the team at that time.

Alright, when I said "25 words no more no less", I was exaggerating it a bit. It was actually 25 words and more. More being just more by a word or two.

I can understand that posts should not be less than 25 words since that's the agreement with the buyers. However, posts over 25 words were also frowned upon. The reason given was that writing posts longer than 25 words was a waste of company resources, since the buyers were not paying for the extra words.

That was the issue which led to the discussion about the ergonometrics of forum posting which ended with my departure. Totally voluntary and self-initiated departure, mind you.

Let's take a look at the real world first.

How would you like to sit down at a table and have a conversation with a few persons who all speak, without fail or falter, just 25 words plus minus just a word or two? Is that natural? Does that even make for any kind of conversation? The answer is so obvious, isn't it?

Now let's look at the virtual world.

Have you ever been on forums where every member posts 25 words in each post? Plus minus just a word or two. Well, I haven't.

However I have been on a couple of forums where the forum owner/admin/mod has this great idea that he must get this money's worth from hosting the forum and insisted, in the rules as well as sharp reminders in posts, that all members must post in proper English, at length, with content that's full of well-researched valid information.

Now can you guess what happened to that kind of forum?

The forum died. Or is as good as dead with the forum owner/admin/mod using the forum as a place to show off his own knowledge of the niche. I personally think that that forum owner/admin/mod has absolutely no idea what's the difference between a forum and a blog.

Have you ever been on a forum that's big and active and thriving? I have.

For many years, I have been a member of WebHostingTalk. Not the most active member there but the number of posts I have made there is substantial. On WHT, members can make one-word posts and they don't get any infraction for it. They also post full pages when the situation warrants it. Sometimes they post useful information. Sometimes they post pure nonsense.

Does that kind of forum posting work? Well, go over to WHT and see how many members they have online at any one time. And count the number of stickies there. All paid for.

The point I am making here is that to post in a forum like a forty-year-old virgin with ants in her pants is not the way to post in a forum. Now what exactly do I mean by a forty-year-old virgin with ants in her pants?

First, I said forty-year-old because, generally speaking, that's an age when a person is supposed to be mature. So no jumping up and down like an excited little kid. Then I said virgin because, a real virgin, as opposed to a technical virgin, does not know anything about the real world. That's logical, right? If she really knew anything about the real world, she wouldn't be a virgin anymore. Right?

Now having ants in her pants would make her itchy, wouldn't it? However since she's forty and therefore cannot jump up and down like a kid, plus she's a virgin, so she can't just scratch those itchy parts, what can she do?

Well, all she can do is sit tight. Tight like someone holding back a turd in their butt. Then she has to force herself to speak in measured tones. Even more measured than usual to compensate for the devastatingly distracting sensation of ants in her pants.

Now how would you like to be a member of a forum where all the members post like forty-year-old virgins with ants in their pants?

Anyway, I wish PFP all the best and if you should meet the second-in-command there, if it's the same person after all these years, please tell her that Hallelujah Lovelight sends his love. Tell her to give her little girl a kiss from ThisOldMan, too.

In case you are wondering, Victor Leigh, Hallelujah Lovelight and ThisOldMan are all the one and same person. All full of the same shit, too.

I've been wracking my brain trying to figure out who the second-in-command would be.  I'm guessing you mean one of the earliest moderators and long-time staff members, but she's no longer there.

I know posters are told they don't need to post longer than 25 words and won't get paid extra for it, but I routinely go well over that.  Can't help being wordy, I guess.  The only time I was asked to stop that was on an occasion when the client was trying to get long posts for the same rate and we didn't want him to think that was going to happen on a regular basis. 

Tina G (02:29pm Sun, Dec 16, 2012)

I know posters are told they don't need to post longer than 25 words and won't get paid extra for it, but I routinely go well over that.  Can't help being wordy, I guess.  The only time I was asked to stop that was on an occasion when the client was trying to get long posts for the same rate and we didn't want him to think that was going to happen on a regular basis. 

That's likely part of the reason they discourage people from going too far over the 25 words. They don't want clients to get used to that level of quality....and then complain that not all of the posters are giving that sort of content.

That's true, too.  They charge more for longer or more complicated content and pay the writers more accordingly.  Clients who want more than the standard should pay for the extra work, which makes sense to me.

Well, she was a very nice person and she used her daughter's picture as her avatar. Anyway that's neither here nor there.

Back that 25-word question.

I still do not think that making posts with such a word length constraint is natural. Now I am not an expert on forum posting by any means. However, I believe I have made my mark on the number of forums with my style of posting.

Maybe someday I will put together a forum posting team called The Natty Naturals.

Oh, I totally agree, Victor.  It's not really natural, by any means.  Unfortunately, it is hard to be 100% natural due to the nature of the business.  There are times where a shorter or longer post would be more natural. 

Seeing it from the back end, as a former moderator at PFP, what most people don't realize is that if you don't have those rules in place, there are those who get hired who would post nonsensical or ultra-brief comments just to get the job done.  When PFP first started, the rules were less stringent but staff members who would be asked not to do something, would argue with the moderation that what they did wasn't a rule.  Sometimes you just can't win... lol.

Not nearly enough people have the common sense that you are expressing here, unfortunately.

Well, Tina, I think maybe the way posting packages are put together should be changed.

Instead of the usual package of, say, 100 25-word posts, maybe something more natural like, say, 100 posts with an average word count of 20-25 words and not less than 10 words or more than 50 words in any one post. That should give the posters some leeway to post more spontaneously.

I think I should give this matter some serious thought. Forum posting is becoming a market niche by itself. More study should be made to take forum posting to a new level of sophistication.

Having read Phil and Victor's experiences with PFP, I don't think I'll bother. I enjoy working with another firm, and I also have a number of freelance forum posting jobs. Everyone I deal with treats me like the professional writer I am, and gives me leeway to post as I see fit. That's the only type of client I want to work for. I don't need the money that badly. Well, I do actually, but I'm not prepared to jump through their ridiculous hoops to get it.

I find this hilarious.

I do forum posting. I like going on forums and posting. I have only just started getting paid forum posting jobs. One is posting on a Soccer betting forum. What do I know about Soccer, you ask? Nothing, but doesn't that make it challenging? A founding member of a forum on Soccer Betting with a few other people that seem to know a lot about Soccer and me pretending I do and posting 10 posts a day? I think its awesome. Another job I am doing 6 separate forums and sharing 100 posts a month for them. $1/post. What kind of forums? Beauty and Hair and make up and fashion. You think Soccer was a challenge? Holy crap! But this is challenging and fun too. I just open up a heap of browsers and go in and have a quick look at what is moving and pick a thread I think I can reply to, read the page quickly. Post on that thread and another and out to the next.

Hey its all good fun.

Would I post with those kind of restrictions? Nah. 25c/post sounds ok, but nah.

Good grief! Well I guess I don't feel so bad that my application was rejected.  That was really discouraging though.  They just sent me this automated email saying a whole lot of nothing and you are not approved.  No actual reason why I was not approved and no indication of whether I could or should try again later. 

Thank you for explaining this so eloquent, I know I have looked into it before, but never gone through the trouble.
Now I understand why and I totally agree with the conclusion. Forum posts are for the members of the forum too, not only the owner, and to make a forum into an active and thriving on-line community it has to be reflecting the real life, also how people talk and response.

I often find it quite tedious to read these "posts" , and you generally can smell them a long way, those limited word count posts.

Wow! that sounds ridiculous and it is like going through an interigation before you are able to write. I have been through some weird starter processes but just before I complete the entire form I leave because you know that there is no money to be made there.

I had originally thought that it was just me, that this "job" seemed to be more of a "hassle" than anything else. Granted, I never even made it past my 8 posts. I was told that my English wasn't good enough, which was shocking to me as I've been working online for close to 10 years now as a freelance writer. Everything was quite confusing even when I was doing these posts so all of this made me sit back and think that ultimately it just wasn't worth it. I guess my intuition was right. I just wish more people wouldn't waste their time there.