LtStorm

Fuzzy Teenage Bunny

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So, the topic about founding a religion has me wondering.  Who here is a believer in homeopathy/"natural" medicine?  Why are you a believer in it? 

Or are you the opposite; a skeptic of it?  Do you believe it just doesn't work?  Do you believe it's potentially deadly to those who use it?  How do you feel about it?

I'm curious, let's hear what people think.

 

 

Kimberley

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My grandmother is a REAL stickler for it, and shoves everything my way. She's had me on St. Johns Wort for depression for weeks now....and it hasnt helped me at all. I feel the same way.

She's had me on other stuff too.....I think it's more of a placebo effect if anything. It works if you believe it does.

 

Bunny

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My mum had me on that stuff too! She had me on some "natural weight loss" pills too....but they messed with my insulin and I was falling asleep after being awake 4 hours :shame:. It was horrible...

 

LtStorm

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My grandmother is a REAL stickler for it, and shoves everything my way. She's had me on St. Johns Wort for depression for weeks now....and it hasnt helped me at all. I feel the same way.

She's had me on other stuff too.....I think it's more of a placebo effect if anything. It works if you believe it does.

Yeah, pretty much.  If you're chronically depressed, or clinically depressed, you need to see a psychiatrist for help.  Which may or may not involve actual medication, but if it does will at least have you on an actual anti-depressant rather than a holistic remedy.

 

LtStorm

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My mum had me on that stuff too! She had me on some "natural weight loss" pills too....but they messed with my insulin and I was falling asleep after being awake 4 hours :shame:. It was horrible...

This is pretty much exactly why "natural" medicine can be detrimental to your health.  There's very little consideration of pharmacokinetic interactions it could have with other medicines you're currently taking, which is only hurt more by the fact it's usually not prescribed by actual licensed doctors.  No, I don't count practitioners of "natural" medicine as licensed doctors.

 

Lunar

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I practice some naturaly medicine, but only in addition to doctor's medicine or what you are taking at the moment. Nothing I use is particularly complicated though, so it has not effect on other midicines. Though, a lot of my healing remedies also include some natural wiccan magick, and I can see how your response is going to change now.

 

LtStorm

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I practice some naturaly medicine, but only in addition to doctor's medicine or what you are taking at the moment. Nothing I use is particularly complicated though, so it has not effect on other midicines. Though, a lot of my healing remedies also include some natural wiccan magick, and I can see how your response is going to change now.

Yeah, be careful with taking "natural" medicine in addition to doctor's medicine, as that's the problem Bunny ran into; those "natural" medicines interacting with her real medicines and causing unwanted side effects.

Eh, try all the "natural" wiccan magick you want, as long as you accept that real medicine is what you need to be taking and wiccan magick should just be a supplement to give you peace of mind, the same as Christian prayer or rosaries, or whatever other religions do.  All I can fault you on is that you spell "magic" with a 'k', which I have never understood.  Of course, I question how "magick" is natural, too, you'll have to explain that one to me.

 

Lunar

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magick is spelt with a "k" when refering to spells and such wiccan magick to differenciate between our stuff and people pulling rabbits out of a hat.
it is natural because all i do it harness natural energy for good. an example being drawing energy from our natural earth in asking for healing for someone.
you cannot assume that magick just gives me peace of mind if you have never experienced its powers for yourself, thats kinda naive of you.

 

LtStorm

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magick is spelt with a "k" when refering to spells and such wiccan magick to differenciate between our stuff and people pulling rabbits out of a hat.
it is natural because all i do it harness natural energy for good. an example being drawing energy from our natural earth in asking for healing for someone.
you cannot assume that magick just gives me peace of mind if you have never experienced its powers for yourself, thats kinda naive of you.

But there's already a way to discern between those two; pulling a rabbit out of a hat is sleight of hand, not magic. 

Still, what is "natural energy"?  That makes it sound like there's unnatural energy.  I guess you could say that anthropogenic things like a radio station's signal are "unnatural," even though they're still composed of natural electromagnetic waves arranged in a specific manner. 

I'm perfectly willing to experience the powers of magic.  I just don't see any way to do so in an empirical fashion.  I mean, I'd be willing to build an interferometer, such as the one built that disproved ether theory, if I thought there was any basis for doing so.

 

Runic

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magick is spelt with a "k" when refering to spells and such

Thats bullshit, its spelt with a k in your sense so people can claim a difference!!!

 

LtStorm

Fuzzy Teenage Bunny

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magick is spelt with a "k" when refering to spells and such

Thats bullshit, its spelt with a k in your sense so people can claim a difference!!!

Sort of like how you add "natural" in front of your folk medicines to try to claim they're different from rubbing random tinctures on yourself and claiming they work.

 

Bunny

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My mum had me on that stuff too! She had me on some "natural weight loss" pills too....but they messed with my insulin and I was falling asleep after being awake 4 hours :shame:. It was horrible...

This is pretty much exactly why "natural" medicine can be detrimental to your health.  There's very little consideration of pharmacokinetic interactions it could have with other medicines you're currently taking, which is only hurt more by the fact it's usually not prescribed by actual licensed doctors.  No, I don't count practitioners of "natural" medicine as licensed doctors.

I'm not taking anything else though.....and I'm the retard that will start taking them again soon..just half the dosage it said, until I'm okay. I have to go get checked for diabetes - I'm at risk.

Also, I mirror Kimberleys belief.

The meds: http://www.supervits.com/Life-Extension-Integra-Lean-Irvingia-150mg-60-Vcaps-P3404.aspx?gclid=CLT6r5yAs5oCFRJdxwod1Co1cQ

Mum has at least 10 bottles here, that's 600 pills...

magick is spelt with a "k" when refering to spells and such

Thats bullshit, its spelt with a k in your sense so people can claim a difference!!!

I read a book where it was spelt "magyk".....though I THINK they spell it differently in the UK/US versions, cause I can remember Rhianna's book spelling it different..

http://www.septimusheap.com/

 

Haffina

Fuzzy Teenage Bunny

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There are many doctor prescribed medicines that have their roots in naturally occurring products..such as penicillin.

 

LtStorm

Fuzzy Teenage Bunny

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There are many doctor prescribed medicines that have their roots in naturally occurring products..such as penicillin.

And that would be Natural Product Chemistry.  Which has little to nothing to do with Natural Medicines. 

The antibiotic effects of penicillin were discovered decades before it was even considered for use in humans.  And studied for five or more years before clinical trials in humans began.  Then the active compound in it was identified, isolated, and a synthetic path was drawn up for it, allowing it to be created synthetically, making it viable to bring to a large market as it is to this day.

Meanwhile, St. John's Wart was used on people before any effect it had was known or proven, and despite continuing to show little to no difference between its effect on things like depression and a placebo effect, it's sold as a remedy for it anyway.

 

LtStorm

Fuzzy Teenage Bunny

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My mum had me on that stuff too! She had me on some "natural weight loss" pills too....but they messed with my insulin and I was falling asleep after being awake 4 hours :shame:. It was horrible...

This is pretty much exactly why "natural" medicine can be detrimental to your health.  There's very little consideration of pharmacokinetic interactions it could have with other medicines you're currently taking, which is only hurt more by the fact it's usually not prescribed by actual licensed doctors.  No, I don't count practitioners of "natural" medicine as licensed doctors.

I'm not taking anything else though.....and I'm the retard that will start taking them again soon..just half the dosage it said, until I'm okay. I have to go get checked for diabetes - I'm at risk.

Also, I mirror Kimberleys belief.

The meds: http://www.supervits.com/Life-Extension-Integra-Lean-Irvingia-150mg-60-Vcaps-P3404.aspx?gclid=CLT6r5yAs5oCFRJdxwod1Co1cQ

Mum has at least 10 bottles here, that's 600 pills...

Yeah, that is Natural Product Chemistry from what I can tell.  It may not be a Natural Medicine, and may be an actual proven drug.  Given, that doesn't make it a good idea.  Fen-phen was an actual proven drug too, but it was rushed through FDA approval and put on the market before detailed studies of its side effects were done and, hey, guess what, it causes your heart to explode and your lungs to collapse!  Whoopsie! 

Given, I'm of the mind that all weight loss drugs are bullshit to some degree, and the only way to really lose weight and keep it off is to exercise and eat better.  Especially exercise.

magick is spelt with a "k" when refering to spells and such

Thats bullshit, its spelt with a k in your sense so people can claim a difference!!!

I read a book where it was spelt "magyk".....though I THINK they spell it differently in the UK/US versions, cause I can remember Rhianna's book spelling it different..

http://www.septimusheap.com/

I  checked that website and figured it was just an intentional misspelling of the word, along with the words "Physics," (well, actually the German translation) and "Flight," etc. done for comedic effect, such as in the Discworld books.  But a friend that works in a library had to go and point out to me that it's entirely straight-faced teen fiction.  So, I just have to say;

ANTI-LIFE JUSTIFIES MY HATE.
ANTI-LIFE JUSTIFIES MY HATE.
ANTI-LIFE JUSTIFIES MY HATE.
ANTI-LIFE JUSTIFIES MY HATE.
ANTI-LIFE JUSTIFIES MY HATE.




 

Bunny

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I think Fen-Phen was the one I'd heard of...

* Bunny would still have taken it *

"ANTI-LIFE JUSTIFIES MY HATE." WTF does that mean?

 

LtStorm

Fuzzy Teenage Bunny

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I think Fen-Phen was the one I'd heard of...

* Bunny would still have taken it *

"ANTI-LIFE JUSTIFIES MY HATE." WTF does that mean?

Phrase from DC's Final Crisis comic line that involved the Superman villain, Darkseid, trying to destroy the universe using the Anti-Life Equation.  It's sort of become a memetic mutation.  Usually I say "ANTI-THOUGHT JUSTIFIES MY HATE," but mistyped there and didn't realize it until you pointed it out.

 

Bunny

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So.. Anti-thought would mean ignorance OR closedmindedness? Or am I off my rocker? It's an ungodly hour, can't expect me to be a genius this early...

 

LtStorm

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So.. Anti-thought would mean ignorance OR closedmindedness? Or am I off my rocker? It's an ungodly hour, can't expect me to be a genius this early...

Yeah, something like that.  Ignorance, closed-mindedness, willful stupidity, etc.

 

Bunny

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Like the fucker who got on my bus this morning...


Will blog later :@.

 

Andre Vienne

Furry Young Bunny

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666 Posts
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Oooh. I like this topic, but I've got nothing to contribute for the moment.

Well, except for the lawl kinoki footpad thing.

 

LtStorm

Fuzzy Teenage Bunny

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Unfortunately Lunar stopped posting after I actually questioned her about things, and Runic just had to call the kettle black.

 

Andre Vienne

Furry Young Bunny

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Pretty much, yeah. Give 'em a week. they'll respond.

 

bravebluemice

Growing Baby Bunny

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There are several different camps of homeopathic medicine, and I'm afraid I'm not very well versed in any of them.

I will say this, though:

A very good friend of mine (since we were like, six) grew up to become a chiropractor.  She practices chiropractic medicine in addition to physical therapy in her "studio" in the basement of her mother's home.

She combines "energy healing" with the same physical therapy that you can get through any modern hospital.  Allegedly she treats athletes, and has a very specific clientele.  She's not the type you look up in the phone book.

I tore up my back and my right knee at an early age in a mountain biking accident.  I've been to hospitals and lived through occupational therapy and such, and it sucks.  You get better, but it takes time and patience, and when you're young those qualities are never abundant.

Fast forward to modern life.  My friend graduates college and grad school, and with her mother (her mother was into energy healing or holistic medicine or some such, I never paid much mind), she built her 'studio'...

She has a lift chair that will take you down the stairs without stairs, but once you get to the bottom, instead of a sterile white environment, you're greeted with a large room decorated in dark greens and maroons with gold accents, and live plants EVERYWHERE.  There's recessed can lighting in the room providing just enough light so that everything is very comforting.  All of the tables are done up in a dark red suede and all of the implements of medieval torture are removed from view.  Incense burn and soft panpipe music plays over a high fidelity sound system hidden in the foliage.

She'll chant and sprinkle herbs, and perform the necessary adjustments both physically and spiritually.

Whether or not any of the holistic stuff makes a difference, even she's skeptical to say, BUT

I will say that the experience sure beats the hell out of the sterile white clinics I've been to.  And that has to count for something.

~BBM

 

Bunny

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That sounds awesome!

I'd love to see photos :D

 

LtStorm

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There are several different camps of homeopathic medicine, and I'm afraid I'm not very well versed in any of them.

Well, homeopathy is really only one subset of holistic medicine.  Or, to be more accurate, "folk remedies."  Because calling it "medicine" is a stretch.  Specifically, homeopathy is based on "water memory," a concept with no evidence or proposed mechanisms that supposedly makes it so a massively diluted solution still carries the effects of the compound it originally contained.  Even though it contains a statistically insignificant amount currently.

Of course, the compounds used are generally toxins of some sort with no medicinal effect that are used because they cause similarly effects to the symptoms the concoction is attempting to treat.

So you pretty much can't be healed by homeopathic medicine.  The best you can get from it is nothing, the worst is sicker because the solution was improperly prepared and wasn't diluted far enough.

I will say this, though:

A very good friend of mine (since we were like, six) grew up to become a chiropractor.  She practices chiropractic medicine in addition to physical therapy in her "studio" in the basement of her mother's home.

She combines "energy healing" with the same physical therapy that you can get through any modern hospital.  Allegedly she treats athletes, and has a very specific clientele.  She's not the type you look up in the phone book.

I tore up my back and my right knee at an early age in a mountain biking accident.  I've been to hospitals and lived through occupational therapy and such, and it sucks.  You get better, but it takes time and patience, and when you're young those qualities are never abundant.

Fast forward to modern life.  My friend graduates college and grad school, and with her mother (her mother was into energy healing or holistic medicine or some such, I never paid much mind), she built her 'studio'...

She has a lift chair that will take you down the stairs without stairs, but once you get to the bottom, instead of a sterile white environment, you're greeted with a large room decorated in dark greens and maroons with gold accents, and live plants EVERYWHERE.  There's recessed can lighting in the room providing just enough light so that everything is very comforting.  All of the tables are done up in a dark red suede and all of the implements of medieval torture are removed from view.  Incense burn and soft panpipe music plays over a high fidelity sound system hidden in the foliage.

She'll chant and sprinkle herbs, and perform the necessary adjustments both physically and spiritually.

Whether or not any of the holistic stuff makes a difference, even she's skeptical to say, BUT

I will say that the experience sure beats the hell out of the sterile white clinics I've been to.  And that has to count for something.

Yeah, chiropractic is another holistic medicine, and the energy healing sounds a lot like "traditional Chinese medicine" (note: "traditional," not "effect").  I'm sure the experience does beat the hell out of sterile white clinics until you realize you were basically treated to a very expensive day spa trip and received no benefits over a trip to a day spa....

~BBM
[/quote]

 

 

samgam

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wow, sam's kinda overwhelmed. I stumbled here, thinking i might be able to supply something... ah well, maybe I'll just go and post something about eugenics for fun... lol

 

Ihana

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This topic is dude generally cause i know alot into the whole remedie thing. Personally i think everyone is entitled to their own opinion and that wat storm is saying is quite true, however i do think it is not the end of the world if you try a few remedies here and there, and as for the spelling of Magick, does it matter really? haha these debates get so tense. personally though a remedie has never worked for me but medicine has not done a good job eiether i say take it like a man and let your own body fight dieseases its better for the immune system lols. :)

 

samgam

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Yeah, I'm a huge supporter of pill poppers XD But seriously, I take ibuprophen for minor headaches and sudaphed at the slightest signs of congestion. I don't believe in letting myself suffer=P

 

Ihana

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lols, maybe i'm just too lazy to reach for the pills. Or my addictive personality might have a problem with them i'm not sure lols. I'm ill all the time, this darn english weather, i even get colds in summer. This is obviously cause i don't indulge in drugs like every one else lols.

 

Bunny

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I'm an addictive person....I won't take anything unless I'm in pain that wont let me function....however, if I have a cold you best have all the cold related drugs around because I'll be clawing my way through them :X.

 

Lunar

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personally though a remedie has never worked for me but medicine has not done a good job eiether

Thats not true Ihana! I gave you something for your cold which cleared you up some and the stuff on your Eczema which also helped. I'm not saying I can sure stuff with natural remedies, but they can help the symptoms sometimes. Nor am I saying they work all the time, but it's better than pumping yourself with drugs that are killing your immune system and affecting your body with often bad side effects.

And the reason I didn't argue back was because I had better things to do than argue with such a closed minded... person. If you were interested in hearing our views why discount them? It's especially foolish when you don't know what your talking about.

You seem to believe for whatever reasons in science, and I don't. I accept that. Why do you have such a problem with my beliefs? Most people have a problem with my kinda beliefs because they are afraid of them and do not understand them, and I can see this as a strong possibility with you.

Let me know when you stop being so arrogant and are ready to listen to someone else other than yourself, because I will be waiting.

 

LtStorm

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Thats not true Ihana! I gave you something for your cold which cleared you up some and the stuff on your Eczema which also helped. I'm not saying I can sure stuff with natural remedies, but they can help the symptoms sometimes. Nor am I saying they work all the time, but it's better than pumping yourself with drugs that are killing your immune system and affecting your body with often bad side effects.

...Yeah, most drugs aren't immunosuppressants.  Besides, natural remedies, if they work, have just as good a chance of causing bad side effects.  However, if they have no effect, there's no risk of side effects.  Such is medicine.

And the reason I didn't argue back was because I had better things to do than argue with such a closed minded... person.

Closed-minded?  How am I closed-minded?  Did I not ask you follow-up questions?  I was curious as to their answers.  I even asked and tried to discuss the use of a 'k' in spelling 'magick.' 

If you were interested in hearing our views why discount them?

Because I was pointing out the flaws and inconsistencies in your views to be helpful?

It's especially foolish when you don't know what your talking about.

I fear I know too well what I'm talking about.

You seem to believe for whatever reasons in science, and I don't. I accept that.

Why do you not believe in science?  If there is any sort of research or trials done on your natural remedies to determine what they're good at curing, that is science in and of itself.

Why do you have such a problem with my beliefs?

Because you were bordering dangerously close to the anti-vaccionists and similar movements, such as the woman currently in the news for refusing and trying to avoid chemotherapy for her very sick son.  They kill people.  Mostly children.  That's what I have a problem with such beliefs.  If those aren't your beliefs, then there's no problem!

Most people have a problem with my kinda beliefs because they are afraid of them and do not understand them, and I can see this as a strong possibility with you.

What have I said that implies I don't understand them?  Please, enlighten me, I would like to learn what it is I do not know about your beliefs, and what I have said that is wrong of them,

Let me know when you stop being so arrogant and are ready to listen to someone else other than yourself, because I will be waiting.

And I will be waiting for you to respond to my questions rather than calling me closed-minded. 

 

Ihana

Fluffy Toddler Bunny

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wow! this topic is becoming a very hot debate, i suppose evryones calling you close minded storm XD, my bad i suppose i did start it all my apologies i was having a bad day lol. i think rejecting treatment for serious illness like cancer and stuff is very foolish when it generally works. We aren't in the stone age so i think we should use technology to help ourselves live for longer. As for the remedies my eczema has never healed up so you can't say that lunar, i tried it yes but it didn't do much good =P. (Doesn't help when your allergic to the actual medical stuff thats supposed to help as well) i am defiantly pro medicine generally cause i come from a medical background, i just don't tend to use it much lols.  :lol:

 

bravebluemice

Growing Baby Bunny

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Yeah, chiropractic is another holistic medicine, and the energy healing sounds a lot like "traditional Chinese medicine" (note: "traditional," not "effect").  I'm sure the experience does beat the hell out of sterile white clinics until you realize you were basically treated to a very expensive day spa trip and received no benefits over a trip to a day spa....

~BBM

Once again, I'll point out that she does the same work that I can get at a local chiropractic clinic without all the extras.  It is a licensed medical facility, not a day spa.  In fact, I get the same sound medical advice from HER that I've gotten from doctors my entire life.  (Most of which involve losing a few pounds, I am a little soggy 'round the midsection...)

As for my back, I did see a lower back injury specialist after experiencing a lifting related injury, and he told me that he could just get me an open ended prescription for pain medication.  I didn't like this idea much.

After several adjustments at a chiropractor, I needed no medication to function like a normal human being.

I'll endorse chiropractic for the stuff relating to the back and spinal system.  As far as the other crazy stuff they (as a community) endorse in, I could admit is sketchy.  I'm up on my immunizations, and will use antibiotics to kill off infection, (not that I get many.  I've only been on antibiotics twice as far back as I can remember)...  I'm not anti-medicine, I'm just a pretty healthy fellow.

As far as the bigger stuff, like Cancer, there is no cure yet.  Sure, they can cut out the defective cells and bathe you in radiation, or worse, stuff you full of toxins and hope you're tough enough to survive....  I've known more than two dozen people who have died of cancer, and every last one of them was made to suffer through "treatments"...  After watching those people die horrible, painful deaths, you'll understand my skepticism.

I guess it really depends on what you believe in.  Perception, once again, is everything.  Some will say something works, some will say it doesn't.  The results will tell, and the truth will speak for itself in time.

~BBM

Oh, and LtStorm:  I think you asked for it when you called a large part of this board's members narrow minded or ignorant.  Everyone is entitled to their viewpoint, and by repeatedly telling them why they're wrong isn't the way to change their minds, it's just a good way to look like an ass.  ~Cheers

 

Lunar

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Oh, and LtStorm:  I think you asked for it when you called a large part of this board's members narrow minded or ignorant.  Everyone is entitled to their viewpoint, and by repeatedly telling them why they're wrong isn't the way to change their minds, it's just a good way to look like an ass.  ~Cheers
Couldn't have said it better myself. Back off.

 

Bunny

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This debate is "hot" or "personal" because people are taking stuff that's said to heart. When you enter a debate you need to do so knowing you might get flack for your opinions and beliefs so you don't take them to heart and get hurt. When you do that it's easier to have fun :D.

As a note: the name calling needs to stop.


Anyway, I'd like to put forth another viewpoint, which is personal :P.

For 4 years I've gone to the doctors about the same problems, which I wont tell you all of but generally I've been known to pass out due to intense stomach pain, and I spend every second of every day nauseous. When I don't want to be nauseous, I eat until my stomach is so full I can't feel it....but sometimes I feel so sick I cannot eat, though I do and suffer through the nausea. On top of this I tend to get indigestion, especially in the mornings or when my stomach is empty (and if my stomach is empty for too long I throw up, I have since I was like 6 or so).

Now, in response to this I get asked if I'm sure:
-It's not period pain. Do I look fucking retarded? How old am I?! NINETEEN. I think I might be used to what period pain is by now, don't you?! Not to mention, if my reproductive organs are THAT high up we have a more serious problem than was first anticipated.
-It's not gas pains. I've had gas pains, they attack my entire stomach and I pretty much have a panic attack because I think I'm dying (well after having pains in one spot for so long, you might freak out too ;)).

Now, each time I've gone, I've told them that the pain is to the left, right under my last rib. The pain is in ONE spot and feels like a hot knife. It's the intensity of the pain, and the fact that it's not all through my stomach that causes me to pass out. I feel like I'm not listened to.

FINALLY, after I went in screaming and crying did they decide it might be a good time for a blood test, to check for h pilori (sp?). It came back with a "healthy amount", so apparently I don't have an ulcer. I'm sitting there like "well, what about other tests. It might not even BE my stomach, it could be some other organ near it. Where's the MRI and scopes and stuff?"

I had a three part blog series which bitched about the whole experience. Anyway, my point being: medicine isnt exactly a friend in this instance. I get drugs when I don't need them (like the time I said I was having trouble sleeping and was given sleeping pills, even though the problem was due to back pain because I strained a muscle.... I just needed a few hot baths) and I don't get them when I do (like the stomach issue, in which case drugs and tests are considered the same thing).

 

Bunny

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As another instance where medicine was against me, here's my blog:

Quote from Alundra
Continuing with the epicly long depression, we should move onto those who were there to help me through it.

The "helpers"
I went through shrinks faster than I would have liked to my whole life. Only one to ever truly listen to me was a German woman. They all discharged me saying I was "wasting their time" or I was "okay" or what ever. NO. I'm not fucking okay, can't you hear me?!

I've always asked for male shrinks, because I feel they won't dismiss me if I bring up "woman problems". The women I've talked to just dismiss that. If I say I feel depressed around that time the women shrink says that's normal, and spends no more time on it. I mean, everyone has it, so it's not important right? The male asks me what I mean by depressed, and then discovers I actually feel suicidal around those times. He gives me council, and helps me move through it.

See? Not listening isnt only DAMAGING but it could KILL SOMEONE.

The last shrink I had, watched me crying infront of him, and took away the one thing keeping me alive. My antidepressants. He took them away too fast, and I had withdrawal symptoms. I still have them. I heard it can take up to 8 years to get rid of them, so I'm about half way.

Let me show you a list, if it's crossed off, I didnt have it. If it's italicised, I still have it:
I had to stop.. The electric zaps were killers. I punched myself so many times I about knocked myself out. I DID manage to throw myself out of my desk in math class, it honestly did get that violent.

The abdominal discomfort felt like period pain (or like someone was knotting your organs) 24/7, it was so bad I was living off pain killers one week. It lasted 3+ months. Now I just get what feels like "electric shocks" every now and then. I don't know for sure if it's related.

The vivid dreams and nightmares were EXTREMELY graphic. I cannot even describe to you the amount of detail in these, no photograph, or even the human eye, can show you how unbelievably clear and detailed the image was. I don't even know how those images ever made their way into my head. I was in my body 100% and my face was being mauled by a sheepdog. This dog had previously made a play stance and given me a stick, it was not hostile. It was my favourite kind of dog.

Fever was great though. When it got to 100 I was sent home (6).

I still get restlessness. It's not normal. You literally HAVE to do something. I cannot even describe it. It's like RLS all over your body....but nothing you do gets rid of it. I used to run outside and scream my lungs out for the pain of it....but nothing helped. It feels like you're on the verge of a panic attack, but nothing is pushing you over to the actual attack. It's horrible :S.

No one listened to me when I said I had these.

Now, for the record, every single thing listed here is counted as "more than usual". Like for weakness, I was physically able to hold my pen, I just couldnt get my muscles to do it for long.

The aggression is indescribable. When I had that (thank GOD it's gone) my mind was at peace, my BODY wanted to kill!! It scared me so badly I ran every time something happened. Thankfully, mum decided to listen to me at this point and discovered the lists of symptoms. She had sent them to my teachers, so when I went off my head in one class (with language and threats I would NEVER say to a person if I were in my right mind) then ran away, I didnt get into trouble. Lucky it was a Friday, we had the next week off. It took that entire week and then some to get back to normal. I was afraid of my own body.

The memory issues I still have today. I can barely remember anything. I can remember anything I read, and virtually everything said... but that's as far as that goes. It takes a lot of effort for me to recall some things that happened this week, the week before...

The suicidal thoughts were the WORST I have ever experienced. I had to lock every sharp object away from myself. I would see an object, and think of 100 ways to use it to satisfy that thought. In the end I gave up. I was crying a LOT. It was like I had regressed to the beginning.

He was right about one thing: I needed to be off them. I had an emotional addiction (which he would have figured out if he LISTENED to me), and I needed to be brought off slowly. I also had a VERY high dosage, and I needed EXTRA caution to get off them. The tablets were making me sick in the end: when you take antidepressants and you arent depressed, you become it.


There's some symptoms here too:
http://www.prozactruth.com/zoloft.htm

This is making me think all of my "issues" I'm still having are directly related to that now. But that's for the next (and final) part :P.

Keep in mind these drugs were a godsend and saved my life. I was forced to take them in the beginning (I wouldnt even take panadol (USA: tylenol) for headaches, so I wasnt exactly "receptive" to other drugs... especially the daily sort) but eventually I realised they kept me afloat most of the time.

I'm not against medicine. I've had shit experiences with it and hate doctors for it......but I've not gotten any benefits from natural medicine (then again I havent taken them regularily, I'm pisspoor at keeping a medicine schedule cause I cannot remember whether I took them or not :$).

So yeah, there's another two points of view.



As a note, I think that both have the potential for side effects. My mum buys this sort of stuff all the time, and they come in bottles and information packets. Some of them have side effects listed - such as messing with blood pressure, vitamins and stuff in your body, and the one I'm taking now messes with insulin (and I've noticed that).

I generally don't get side effects from medicine. Only three have given me any side effects, and I stopped taking them :).

 

Lunar

Furrless Old Bunny

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I didn't strictly name call... But I'm sorry I will stop.
This sucks Bunny :( slap the doctors till they listen!
Or change doctors, there will be less law suits involved 8-)
I agree that people in the medicine profession are not terribly interested in you half the time, more interested in your money... Though that isn't true for all of them I know.


 

rekenner

Newborn Baby Bunny
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You seem to believe for whatever reasons in science, and I don't. I accept that. 

But LtStorm is closeminded for not believing in homeopathy/etc.?
Don't you think that's a bit hypocritical?
And, there's a difference between being narrow minded and being a skeptic. The former disregards things out of hand, the latter disregards things that there is no factual basis for.

 

Lunar

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yeah but i have no problem with his relentless faith in science, he seems to have a problem with my belief in homeopathic remedies. I agree that science is all good and well, and I rely on conventional medicine, but why cant I use homeopathic remedies too? He seems to have a problem with this, whereas I have no problem with him only accepting science is what I meant. It's his choice, it just makes him a little closed minded in my opinion.
You seem to believe for whatever reasons in science, and I don't. I accept that. 
And, there's a difference between being narrow minded and being a skeptic. The former disregards things out of hand, the latter disregards things that there is no factual basis for.
If this is what you think, then I would say that he is being a little skeptic.

 

Bunny

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Hey Rekenner :D

How about an introduction topic? lol

 

rekenner

Newborn Baby Bunny
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Wait, wait.
A board that actually *does* want them?
This is craziness and madness and heresy and... Sure, why not.

 

samgam

Fuzzy Teenage Bunny

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W00t! Fresh meat for samgam! *does a dance*

 

Bunny

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Wait, wait.
A board that actually *does* want them?
This is craziness and madness and heresy and... Sure, why not.

Well, to be honest, It's like buttin in on a conversation without telling people who the hell you think you are ;D.

W00t! Fresh meat for samgam! *does a dance*

Yay for protein overdoses?
I seriously googled that after a meat binge one day...I was craving it and I couldnt stop :X.

 

samgam

Fuzzy Teenage Bunny

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Nah, I'm just kinda hungry for steak right now and we don't have any *sigh*

 

Lunar

Furrless Old Bunny

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I'm still here, sticking with the vegetarianism!
Though I could do with more proteins... lol

 

samgam

Fuzzy Teenage Bunny

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557 Posts
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*gasp!* You live without the joys of bacon??? Just kidding, I perfectly understand vegetarianism, but it's not for me. I am a meat person and that diet would starve me XD Just make sure to eat your eggs and nuts! (or just nuts if you don't do the incredible, edible egg, thing)

 

Lunar

Furrless Old Bunny

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I still eat eggs, but not very often.
I eat nuts, but they are so fatty! lol
Cheese and beans also have protein is, so I should be fine :P
The smell of bacon makes me feel sick these days...
I love how off topic we have got ^_^

 

samgam

Fuzzy Teenage Bunny

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557 Posts
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Beans are good. Sometimes. But I love very fattening things lol

 

Lunar

Furrless Old Bunny

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me too :)
lol
but they are bad for me, so i shouldnt :P

 

Bunny

Marketing Team

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Samgam, I'm taking you out to eat one day :D.

 

samgam

Fuzzy Teenage Bunny

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That would be amazing. You're amazing. Food's amazing. It's all amazing. =P

 

Bunny

Marketing Team

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LOL I'm not really amazing :P. The glow is from an uhh accident <>.

 

samgam

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lol of course it is

 

LtStorm

Fuzzy Teenage Bunny

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577 Posts
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yeah but i have no problem with his relentless faith in science,

There's no faith involved in my adherence to science as a whole.  Otherwise it wouldn't be science, it would be religion, no?

he seems to have a problem with my belief in homeopathic remedies.

Mostly because by its own admittance homeopathy doesn't work past the Placebo Effect.  Tell me, how do homeopathic remedies work?  Do you know the process they're made by?

I agree that science is all good and well, and I rely on conventional medicine, but why cant I use homeopathic remedies too? He seems to have a problem with this, whereas I have no problem with him only accepting science is what I meant.

Oh, if you accept "conventional" medicine, I have no problem with that.  If you were a friend or family member I'd try to dissuade you away from spending money on homeopathic remedies, but as you aren't, I'm not going to tell you what to do there.
It's his choice, it just makes him a little closed minded in my opinion.

As I said, and rek said again, it's not closed-minded.  I've know what the core tenants and theories behind homeopathy are.  You brought up discredited/obsolete scientific theories earlier.  I assert that homeopathy should join those alongside phrenology and the Four Humours. 

 

Bunny

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I've know what the core tenants and theories behind homeopathy are.  You brought up discredited/obsolete scientific theories earlier.  I assert that homeopathy should join those alongside phrenology and the Four Humours. 

What are the core tenants and theories?

 

samgam

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woo! back to the topic at hand! truth be told, i hold little store in these homeopathic remedies. Though I also find science deals with faith. Faith that what's proven remains proven for the reasons they say it's proven. Never mind, I just thought of my argument and realized I used "faith" instead of "reason." Just wait, I will come up with a stable argument for my quickly made opinion yet!

 

LtStorm

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I've know what the core tenants and theories behind homeopathy are.  You brought up discredited/obsolete scientific theories earlier.  I assert that homeopathy should join those alongside phrenology and the Four Humours. 

What are the core tenants and theories?

Basically, the hypothesis (I say "hypothesis" because "theory" implies there's evidence to support it) is that water has a memory.  If you make a solution of a drug, then serially dilute it, shaking it violently at each step, it will continue to maintain its pharmacological activity despite being diluted so far that there's a statistically insignificant amount of the original substance left. 

Of course, when I say "drug," I don't mean a conventional drug that's found to treat symptoms/sources of disease/sickness.  Another tenant of homeopathy is that toxins that cause similar effects to the one being treated are what should be used to trigger the body curing itself.  While "conventional" drugs are all toxic to some degree (for example, chemotherapy's toxicity is also its active use), they're metered very carefully and used in doses where they aren't.  Which, I suppose the serial dilutions in homeopathic remedies are supposed to do the same thing.  Or dodge the FDA by the loophole that they're selling water.

Anyway, it's an interesting idea, but clinical trials have shot it down time and time again, and nothing over the Placebo Effect has been found during double blind trials where the patients and doctors both didn't know whether they were receiving/giving the medicine or a placebo. 

As I said, the "mechanism" is that water has a memory, and retains its shape around solute molecules, or something, however it's supposed to work.  One experiment with this was the use of human basophils (a type of white blood cell) that had a homeopathic solution of the anti-body that triggers them into releasing a certain chemical.  And it did.  The paper was sent to the journal Nature, and there was a debate over publishing it right away and lending credence to homeopathy by violating various laws of physics and chemistry. 

But since science is open-minded, the study was published, accompanied by a warning that it had not been peer-reviewed (i.e. repeated by other groups), and further research was pending.  At the same time, a group of scientists were dispatched to follow-up on the research, and visited the original researchers to check out their experimental method.  The experiment was repeated again under the watchful eye of the outside scientists, and it worked successfully again.

Then one of the visiting scientists noticed a caveat of the experiment, and decided to make it a "double-blind" trial for the researchers.  So the labels on the test tubes were coded, the codes wrapped in tin foil, placed in an envelope, and taped to the ceiling of the laboratory so they could not be reached.  And the experiment promptly stopped working. 

Either by deception, or just bad laboratory practices, the serial dilutions were being made into test tubes that had previously contained anti-bodies, and still did in a small but statistically significant amount.  And that's what was triggering the basophils. 

So yeah.  Those are the core tenants of homeopathy, and why homeopathy as a whole is a discredited scientific theory.

 

LtStorm

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woo! back to the topic at hand! truth be told, i hold little store in these homeopathic remedies. Though I also find science deals with faith. Faith that what's proven remains proven for the reasons they say it's proven. Never mind, I just thought of my argument and realized I used "faith" instead of "reason." Just wait, I will come up with a stable argument for my quickly made opinion yet!

Actually, there isn't faith in what's proven remaining proven.  There's currently a wildfire of debate in physics because there's evidence that the fine structure constant (alpha) of the universe may be changing over the life of the universe, namely rising very slowly.  The evidence comes from light observed from some of the most distant galaxies and stars in the universe, and shows at the time alpha was noticeably lower.  That has a lot in store for some of the theories that work with alpha, and how they need to be altered to accommodate the changing constant.

 

LtStorm

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Oh, and I just checked.  The guy that "double-blinded" the water memory experiment was James Randi, who runs the foundation named after him that currently has an offer of one million dollars on the table for any psychic or any other person who claims to be capable of magic or other supernatural abilities to prove their abilities in a rigorous trial.  They just recently had a popular psychic attempt to read people's aura's.  She didn't get the million.

 

Lilienthal

Growing Baby Bunny

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I don't have much to add to the discussion at this point, but I'd like to add that if homeopathy is to be believed, whenever you have a glass of water, you are drinking Hitler-pee. (Godwin's law has been long overdue in this topic)

 

Bunny

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I don't have much to add to the discussion at this point, but I'd like to add that if homeopathy is to be believed, whenever you have a glass of water, you are drinking Hitler-pee. (Godwin's law has been long overdue in this topic)

Elaborate.



Storm, are you into Scientology?

 

LtStorm

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I don't have much to add to the discussion at this point, but I'd like to add that if homeopathy is to be believed, whenever you have a glass of water, you are drinking Hitler-pee. (Godwin's law has been long overdue in this topic)

Only if Hitler did jumping jacks while he was pissing.  The vigorous shaking is an important part of making a homeopathic solution!

 

LtStorm

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Storm, are you into Scientology?

...You have no fucking clue what Scientology is, do you?  It has nothing to do with science.  Not a single minute thing.  It was created by a science fiction writer who set out to prove he could make money by deluding people.  And he profoundly did prove it. 

On the highly unlikely off-chance you're referring to the original meaning of the word "scientologist," which was used to describe someone who puts blind faith in science, then no, I'm still not.  I would love to see a real psychic come forward, or an esper, or a telekinetic, or a general witch/wizard that has profound powers that can be demonstrated and quantified to some degree.  That'd be fantastic.  But it hasn't happened yet.  If you have proof of it, contact the James Randi Foundation, as I mentioned earlier they have a tidy prize for anyone who can actually perform magic or other supernatural tricks.

Incidentally, the reason the Church of Scientology is called as such is because its founder, L. Ron Hubbard, was mocking them to their faces for following the bullshit he wrote down.

 

Lilienthal

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Elaborate.

Homeopathy's key element is that a water-based solution that went through an arbitrarily large dilution still has an effect based on the active ingredients used in the original solution, hence the name "water memory." When Hitler urinated, his urine eventually entered the world's water supply. The amount of water on this planet is finite and in constant motion so one could argue that there is an arbitrarily small trace of Hitler's urine in every drop of water on the planet, since it would require an infinite volume and infinite time to remove all of this urine from a solution by dilution.

And that is why you all drink Hitler-pee every day.

This message courtesy of the Marquee button which was looking at me in a funny way whilst I was typing it up.

Edit:
Only if Hitler did jumping jacks while he was pissing.  The vigorous shaking is an important part of making a homeopathic solution!

One could argue that the drainage system took care of that.

 

LtStorm

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Elaborate.

Homeopathy's key element is that a water-based solution that went through an arbitrarily large dilution still has an effect based on the active ingredients used in the original solution, hence the name "water memory." When Hitler urinated, his urine eventually entered the world's water supply. The amount of water on this planet is finite and in constant motion so one could argue that there is an arbitrarily small trace of Hitler's urine in every drop of water on the planet, since it would require an infinite volume and infinite time to remove all of this urine from a solution by dilution.

And that is why you all drink Hitler-pee every day.

This message courtesy of the Marquee button which was looking at me in a funny way whilst I was typing it up.

Edit:
Only if Hitler did jumping jacks while he was pissing.  The vigorous shaking is an important part of making a homeopathic solution!

One could argue that the drainage system took care of that.

You're starting to fall into a statistical argument here.  Similar to this, it's entirely plausible that every breath we take contains some of the same air that was in Caesar's last breath.  Not every breath he took, just his last breath.  Just based on the fact he exhaled 4L of air, and based on gas mechanics it's dispersed over the entire planet by this point. 

Eventually all of the piss from Hitler--probably already--will have infiltrated most water supplies on the planet. 

 

Lilienthal

Growing Baby Bunny

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You're starting to fall into a statistical argument here.  Similar to this, it's entirely plausible that every breath we take contains some of the same air that was in Caesar's last breath.  Not every breath he took, just his last breath.  Just based on the fact he exhaled 4L of air, and based on gas mechanics it's dispersed over the entire planet by this point. 

Eventually all of the piss from Hitler--probably already--will have infiltrated most water supplies on the planet.

Of course, and because it's a statistically insignificant amount it means absolutely nothing, unless you happen to believe in homeopathy. I don't really see how they can still drink tapwater if they follow through on their reasoning.

 

Edward

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I've never placed any confidence in homeopathy. It's always struck me as somewhat childish.  "I want to get healthier and get rid of this disease/whatever, but I want to do it the easy way.'  Which, medicine is incredibly easy.  But everyone I've found, have all wanted something that required negative effort on their part.  I'm not going to say everyone who believes in it is like this, but this has been my experience with it.

A lot of them were also conspiracy nuts, who believed that the gov't is secretly mind controlling them.  Entirely unrelated, but a significant portion of them believed this, and thought that homeopathy took them to 'freedom'.

 

Bunny

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@LtStorm Lmfao, you've intrigued me about the whole Scientology (as a religion) crap. Can you cite that [regarding the science fiction writer]?

About the Hitler pee - I thought about that (just not from a Hitler standpoint) a while ago. I think, that all of the water would evaporate, and the bullshit would be what stayed behind. Then again, it would be in the air so rain water would still be contaminated.... lucky pee is sterile?

 

Lilienthal

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About the Hitler pee - I thought about that (just not from a Hitler standpoint) a while ago. I think, that all of the water would evaporate, and the bullshit would be what stayed behind. Then again, it would be in the air so rain water would still be contaminated.... lucky pee is sterile?

Do you mean the bullshit would stay in the oceans or on land?

 

LtStorm

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@LtStorm Lmfao, you've intrigued me about the whole Scientology (as a religion) crap. Can you cite that [regarding the science fiction writer]?

What, the fact that L. Ron Hubbard, a sci-fi writer, created the Church of Scientology?  I wasn't aware that was any big secret that you couldn't find the answer to with a quick Google search. 

He's also noted for at one point saying,

Quote from L. Ron Hubbard
"If you want to make a little money, write a book. If you want to make a lot of money, create a religion."

So yeah.

 

Bunny

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About the Hitler pee - I thought about that (just not from a Hitler standpoint) a while ago. I think, that all of the water would evaporate, and the bullshit would be what stayed behind. Then again, it would be in the air so rain water would still be contaminated.... lucky pee is sterile?

Do you mean the bullshit would stay in the oceans or on land?

Well I'd assume that it would be used by plants and animals, who would then die and be used as well. I think we're losing water...


@LtStorm Lmfao, you've intrigued me about the whole Scientology (as a religion) crap. Can you cite that [regarding the science fiction writer]?

What, the fact that L. Ron Hubbard, a sci-fi writer, created the Church of Scientology?  I wasn't aware that was any big secret that you couldn't find the answer to with a quick Google search. 

He's also noted for at one point saying,

Quote from L. Ron Hubbard
"If you want to make a little money, write a book. If you want to make a lot of money, create a religion."

So yeah.

Oh wow. Didnt get that the first time, sorry. Kinda makes me want to go stir some shithead up....

 

samgam

Fuzzy Teenage Bunny

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557 Posts
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I would love it if I created a religion I knew to be completely false and tons of people still thought it the truth and believed in it after I died. That would be amazing. So amazing. *now has a new goal in life*

 

Bunny

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I would love it if I created a religion I knew to be completely false and tons of people still thought it the truth and believed in it after I died. That would be amazing. So amazing. *now has a new goal in life*

Write a book!! XD

 

samgam

Fuzzy Teenage Bunny

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557 Posts
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Many books. All at least partially fictional, but the masses don't have to know that ^_^

 

LtStorm

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We really should get this topic going again.  Before certain asshole barged in there was a pretty good discussion going.

 

Edward

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What are the thought processes that go on behind belief in this sort of stuff?

 

Bunny

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We really should get this topic going again.  Before certain asshole barged in there was a pretty good discussion going.

Lol before you go pointing fingers, more than one person contributed to the hostility which killed this topic!

What are the thought processes that go on behind belief in this sort of stuff?

That it's not chemical, so it can't have side effects and must therefore be healthier (organic, not chemical = healthy to most) - more beneficial. Some do it thinking it's greener or it saves "animal testing".

 

LtStorm

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Quote
That it's not chemical, so it can't have side effects and must therefore be healthier (organic, not chemical = healthy to most) - more beneficial. Some do it thinking it's greener or it saves "animal testing".

Well, the modern homeopathic movement may consider it to not be chemical based, but historically that's exactly what it was; it was based on a theory of a physical effect--water memory.  A discredited theory that's been disproven time and time again.  Which is why it gets attacked so much. 

It's greener in the respect that it's greener to never turn your car's engine on than it is to drive a hybrid.  I guess it does save on animal testing, but I'm against animal testing for any pharmaceuticals or cosmetics.

 

Edward

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Does warm milk actually help you fall asleep?  Or is it a placebo effect?

 

Bunny

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LOL.

IF it helps you sleep I think it's more of a comfort related thing...which COULD be attributed to the placebo effect if milk doesnt have any ability to induce tiredness in itself (like a . I think if it does it's because we've been fed "milk" as a baby and the similarities might be comforting and relaxing, helping us fall asleep better.

 

Lilienthal

Growing Baby Bunny

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Does warm milk actually help you fall asleep?  Or is it a placebo effect?

NY Times says a bit of both.

 

Triss

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134 Posts
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I'm definitely not a believer of homeopathy. I tried a few homeopathic drugs in the past and in my opinion they're just placebo. They didn't help in healing my cold at all. To be honest, homeopathic products are quite expensive in my country so buying them is basically a waste of money. On the other hand, there's medical evidence that natural medicine (for instance using particular herbs) can be helpful in treating some diseases.

 



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Nameless (LtStorm) is a Fan Fictionist who has made 577 posts since joining Creative Burrow on 02:21pm Sat, May 9, 2009. LtStorm was invited by no one.

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