So, recently the debate has sprung up with new life, on whether or not the death penalty should be given the death penalty. See what I did there? 

There's been HUNDREDS and THOUSANDS of "botched" executions over the years. The latest one was due to reckless endangerment of human life - using drugs that have not been properly tested for executions. Ha ha see what I did there? 

Recently I came across this very interesting article about how we are all condoning it when it happens regardless of us being aware of murdering someone. See the article to see what I mean, and read all the way through because only at the end does it really make sense. Ha ha.

So...my question is...should the death penalty be axed? Should we cut it out of our system or leave it where it is? If you think it should be axed, what about the more heinous crimes? Is the death penalty okay for people who rape and murder 11 month old babies, for example?

See what I did there?

If we, as a community, kill our citizens, then it sends the message that killing is acceptable.

Likewise for all the rape and torture, dehumanisation and discomfort found in prisons.

Obviously it is no disincentive.

This is not to condone horrific crimes. I think that murderers, rapists and so on should be punished appropriately. But with humanity and consideration for our fellow human beings.

Look at Sweden. Its prisons are notoriously lenient. But does Sweden have a high crime rate? It does not. Does Sweden spend a huge amount on prisons? No.

The punishment is public shaming and removal from society. Judging by the results, it works and works well.

Does Sweeden have people who rape and murder 11 month old babies, who turn their lives around in their system?

And to be honest, can one turn themselves around from that?

Sweden doesn't demonstrate to its citizens that rape and murder are supported by the community.

Skyring (09:15pm Sun, May  4, 2014)

Sweden doesn't demonstrate to its citizens that rape and murder are supported by the community.

How does it do that exactly?

Bunny (09:38pm Sun, May  4, 2014)

Skyring (09:15pm Sun, May  4, 2014)

Sweden doesn't demonstrate to its citizens that rape and murder are supported by the community.

How does it do that exactly?

Well it doesn't. That's the point. It doesn't kill its own people, and it doesn't lock people up in facilities where rape, violence and death are so common that they are the butt of jokes, so to speak.

Okay that makes sense, but if someone raped an 11 month old baby and then that baby died slowly and painfully, what would happen to them in Sweden?

This is a tough one. When you hear of some of the terrible things people have done and they seem to show little remorse all I really want to happen to them is that they get the death penalty. However it always feels kind of like an eye for an eye and what really gives us the power to decided if he should live or die. Sometimes I think we should just put them in a cell on their own and leave them there until they are an old man / woman. But the problem with that is its expensive to keep people alive. This is a really hard one to answer.

My Dad has this idea which seems like a hundred times worse than the death penalty but its to lock someone in a room with a hand grenade but we have no idea when it will go off. Could be 10 years could be 10 seconds but it will eventually go off. That is absolutely too far 

Bunny (03:14am Mon, May  5, 2014)

Okay that makes sense, but if someone raped an 11 month old baby and then that baby died slowly and painfully, what would happen to them in Sweden?

They would be removed from society for the appropriate time. They would not be killed by the state, nor would they be held at risk of assault or other violence. They would merely be denied freedom. They would be offered counselling and education and an opportunity to reflect upon what they had done.

The best way forward for such a person is not death or vicious revenge so they emerge years later full of repressed anger. It is forgiveness and reflection. Surely that is common sense?

Yes, but...what if that person doesn't turn around?

I can't imagine someone like that turning around, changing....?

Bunny (06:50am Wed, May  7, 2014)

Yes, but...what if that person doesn't turn around?

I can't imagine someone like that turning around, changing....?

Would you really kill someone because of your imaginings? 

--Pete

No, but I am saying if they don't change, and will never change, what then?

Bunny (12:17pm Sun, May 18, 2014)

No, but I am saying if they don't change, and will never change, what then?

When we look at our own lives, we see change over the years. Huge changes as we grow and learn and experience life. That applies to any one of us. I reject any viewpoint that says that other humans lack the same capacity, are therefore subhuman and may be disposed of.

Yes but there are plenty of criminals who enjoy being criminals, even behind bars, and have no desire to change. Sometimes those who repeat their offences are not doing it out of love of crime but out of their position, sure, but I am talking about the ones who believe they are not wrong.

When I was doing some research on some topics for our Open Forum here, I discovered a website for people who believe paedophilia is a natural and completely fine thing to act on. There are topics on there where a woman shows the underwear of her 5~ year old niece (her NIECE!!) and details how dirty they are and how they smell for all the other "child lovers". They post photos and detail what they do, it's completely sick how much effort they put into manipulating and trying to explain away what they do. There were arguments on there that kids are sexual beings and they're never pushed into it. How they believe it's respectful.

And not one of them believes it's wrong, and not one of them wants to change. Many have been through therapy - and all of them feel that everyone else is wrong and they are completely normal and healthy people.

That said today when looking for that website I found one for paedophiles who want to be "virtuous" and never harm a child. Kudo's to them, but they are not the ones I'm talking about. I'm talking about the ones who hurt children and would not change if put into prison in Sweden.

We all change. We all change over time. We are all capable of further change. Whether other people change the way we might think they should is out of our control. Taking the life of another person because we don't like them, we don't like their behaviour, we don't think they are like us, that is something I cannot possibly condone.

Seriously, how does selling juvenile underwear possibly deserve murder?

And let me add that what people say on anonymous internet forums is quite possibly not what they actually do in real life.

No no no no, you misunderstand ha ha. I don't agree with the death penalty - I'm arguing that if people are horrible people who resist changing for the better and are just going to repeat offend over and over...what does Sweden do with them?


She wasn't selling them she was extorting her 5 year old niece. She was helping others get off on her photos, pictures of her underwear, etc.

Also, they would post underwear to each other. Dirty underwear. And yes there was selling there too, but still, that's sick. If someone stole and then sold my underwear that would be incredibly violating, and there would be hell to pay and I'm not a child.

I always say let the punishment fit the crime, and if that gets to the level of death . . . so be it.

bribold1 (07:28am Mon, May 19, 2014)

I always say let the punishment fit the crime, and if that gets to the level of death . . . so be it.

An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, and before you know it there's a cycle of revenge and get-even, misery and sorrow.

Also bear in mind that if you sentence someone to death or to life behind bars, they have nothing further to lose. Many such people can and do go on to commit further horrific crimes while in prison, because from their point of view there's no downside.

Skyring (08:00am Mon, May 19, 2014)

bribold1 (07:28am Mon, May 19, 2014)

I always say let the punishment fit the crime, and if that gets to the level of death . . . so be it.

An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, and before you know it there's a cycle of revenge and get-even, misery and sorrow.

Also bear in mind that if you sentence someone to death or to life behind bars, they have nothing further to lose. Many such people can and do go on to commit further horrific crimes while in prison, because from their point of view there's no downside.

If you cut off and bury the head of the snake, how can it bite you back? That's the thing about death: it's final. Not to mention that we already have a cycle of revenge, misery, and sorrow with the current system. These things are a part of the world we live in naturally. And you can't commit more horrible crimes in prison if you're dead. In fact I wonder how differently prisoners would behave if they were told another crime means death. Humans are genetically programmed to avoid death, use that! And the world is over populated anyways, so in some ways that's beneficial for everyone else!

Keep in mind I don't say use death penalty for everyone. But mercy only works on the grateful, and justice on those willing to learn. Some people out there really just want to cause as much pain and destruction as possible, no matter what. I'm just saying if death is what it truly takes, don't be afraid to use it.

bribold1 (08:36am Mon, May 19, 2014)

If you cut off and bury the head of the snake, how can it bite you back? That's the thing about death: it's final. Not to mention that we already have a cycle of revenge, misery, and sorrow with the current system.

The current  unhappy system - as it applies in the US - is what I don't like. Nobody can say that it works as a deterrent.

The thing about the legal system is that it occasionally makes mistakes. People are imprisoned and executed for crimes that they did not commit. The steady flow of cold cases solved with DNA or other evidence demonstrates this. It is rare, but it happens; people are released after years or decades behind bars. Of course they can be given monetary compensation - though I would say that money alone cannot compensate - but how do you compensate somebody you have killed?

"Oh sorry, we stuffed up."

Right.

This is the flawed logic of Utilitarianism; "the greatest good for the greatest number". But this view ensures that there is always somebody holding the short end of the stick. In this case those wrongfully imprisoned or executed while the rest of the community smugly kids themselves that they have lopped the head off the snake who actually walks free.

People are not snakes, and classifying fellow human beings as somehow subhuman is the beginning of the road that leads to Auschwitz.

The USA leads the world in imprisoning its own people, and we can see for ourselves how well that works. It is a self-perpetuating spiral of revenge and misery. How long before some bright spark decides that it would be easier and cheaper to execute all those hundreds of thousands instead of locking them up? Lop the head off the snake and who cares if a few innocent people get caught up accidentally on the trains to the gas chambers?

Wow some great points Bribold!

bribold1 (08:36am Mon, May 19, 2014)

we already have a cycle of revenge, misery, and sorrow with the current system. These things are a part of the world we live in naturally. And you can't commit more horrible crimes in prison if you're dead. In fact I wonder how differently prisoners would behave if they were told another crime means death. Humans are genetically programmed to avoid death, use that!

If the threats are empty they might notice, that's my only worry.

bribold1 (08:36am Mon, May 19, 2014)

mercy only works on the grateful, and justice on those willing to learn. Some people out there really just want to cause as much pain and destruction as possible, no matter what. I'm just saying if death is what it truly takes, don't be afraid to use it.

Great point. Got me thinking!

Skyring (01:58pm Mon, May 19, 2014)

The thing about the legal system is that it occasionally makes mistakes. People are imprisoned and executed for crimes that they did not commit. The steady flow of cold cases solved with DNA or other evidence demonstrates this. It is rare, but it happens; people are released after years or decades behind bars. Of course they can be given monetary compensation - though I would say that money alone cannot compensate - but how do you compensate somebody you have killed?

"Oh sorry, we stuffed up."

Right.

And therein lies my most loudest of objections to the system. Not that it could be immoral or over the top....but because innocent people could get hurt.

Skyring (01:58pm Mon, May 19, 2014)

The USA leads the world in imprisoning its own people, and we can see for ourselves how well that works. It is a self-perpetuating spiral of revenge and misery. How long before some bright spark decides that it would be easier and cheaper to execute all those hundreds of thousands instead of locking them up? Lop the head off the snake and who cares if a few innocent people get caught up accidentally on the trains to the gas chambers?

Maybe then the issue is not the system, but the people in it? I mean think about it - America does have more people than most, and its people have a sense of entitlement over just about everything. I lived there for 6 years and the people there think very different to people in Australia, for example. Americans, in my opinion, are probably more likely to act out and seek revenge if they feel they have been wronged because they believe it's their right to seek justice outside of the system.

Bunny (09:26pm Mon, May 19, 2014)

And therein lies my most loudest of objections to the system. Not that it could be immoral or over the top....but because innocent people could get hurt.

If they have been found guilty, then they are not innocent. That's what the words mean. If I plead not guilty to something, it doesn't mean I didn't do it, it means the state has to prove their case in a trial.

If you are talking about some non-legal definition, then I say that we are all innocent.

This desire to kill other people, and to justify that desire, is what perplexes me.

I myself have mixed feelings about the death penalty.  On one hand, far too many innocent people have been falsely accused, sentenced and then executed in one form or fashion over the ages. However, there are some people over the years, the monsters who thrive on hunting and killing innocent men, women and children for no other reason than they enjoy it...they should be strung up. A short drop and a quick stop to take them right out of the world and pushing up daisies where they belong.

There was a Major General, can't remember the old bugger's name...but there is a famous quote by the man..."Some people just need killing."  I don't like it, but he's right. There are some people who can not and will not change. They are predators...vicious, remorseless and utterly unrepentant. Sick fucks that are utterly undeserving of compassion and I don't want my tax money wasted on keeping these ass-hats alive. Why? Did their victims get any compassion? Pity? Mercy? No.

Personally, I'm all for finding some remote place in the middle of the ocean and throwing the animals in the middle of it and let them kill each other off.

I know a lot of people have this idea that the only one who has the right to say who lives and dies is "god"...with or without a capital G.  If that's so, where is god when little babies are being raped and murdered? Where is god when children are abducted and never seen again?  Where is god when women get stalked and murdered just because they are women?  Where is god when a man beats his wife to death? Where is god when some poor gay kid gets gang raped and beaten to death just because he's gay?

Seems to me no one is really running the show, or really gives a shit, and it's up to people to make such calls. Unfortunately, humans are fallible, corruptible and tend to be greedy shites that would kill another human being or any other creature purely for fun and profit. Messed up world, but that's how it goes. 

hoodoowytch (03:47pm Fri, May 30, 2014)

Seems to me no one is really running the show, or really gives a shit, and it's up to people to make such calls. Unfortunately, humans are fallible, corruptible and tend to be greedy shites that would kill another human being or any other creature purely for fun and profit. Messed up world, but that's how it goes.

A lot of anger and emotion and support for violence there. Looks to me like you'd take pleasure in seeing certain people executed in a painful fashion. To save taxpayers' money, you say. Is that not fun and profit right there?

While I don't have a problem with people who commit serious crimes dying I do have a problem with the state enforcing such a punishment. First of all, some estimates put the number of innocent people on death row as high as 4%. That's one in twenty-five executed people not having done the crime. Was killing the other people worth it? I would say definitely not. There's evidence that harsher sentences can deter crime but no evidence that the death penalty does. Is someone really going to say "I would do this if it would put me in jail for life, but not if they would kill me for it"? Of course not. The death penalty is also racially discriminatory. Black people are far more likely to get the death penalty for the same crime than white people are.

I think supporters of the death penalty mostly just think they sound tough and pretend to live in some perfect black and white world where we always know who's guilty and the execution always works properly and the same way. But killing innocent people, and torturing people to death even if they did do something, is not acceptable to me. So I say definitely say no to the death penalty.

Skyring (01:13am Tue, May 20, 2014)

If they have been found guilty, then they are not innocent.

Not always, they could have been framed. Just because they've been found guilty by the law doesn't mean they are actually guilty.

Skyring (01:13am Tue, May 20, 2014)

This desire to kill other people, and to justify that desire, is what perplexes me.

I'm against it. I was trying to figure out what Sweeden did with criminals who, say, America would execute. You've gone off on a weird tangent or something. I feel really lost. You've not answered any of my questions you've somehow avoided them . I'm just trying to understand your POV ha ha.

hoodoowytch (03:47pm Fri, May 30, 2014)

There was a Major General, can't remember the old bugger's name...but there is a famous quote by the man..."Some people just need killing."  I don't like it, but he's right. There are some people who can not and will not change. They are predators...vicious, remorseless and utterly unrepentant. Sick fucks that are utterly undeserving of compassion and I don't want my tax money wasted on keeping these ass-hats alive. Why? Did their victims get any compassion? Pity? Mercy? No.

See that's what I was wondering too...what, if not death, should we do with those people? Should we all be forced to support them until they die? Or?

hoodoowytch (03:47pm Fri, May 30, 2014)

Personally, I'm all for finding some remote place in the middle of the ocean and throwing the animals in the middle of it and let them kill each other off.

Ha ha, hello from the last place that happened!

hoodoowytch (03:47pm Fri, May 30, 2014)

<snip talk about god>

One could argue that god is not there because he gave us free will. We choose to do wrong and god has given us this gift of not interfering with us so that we can exercise this free will. It wouldn't be free will if he interfered when it would go wrong. Anyway that's another debate ha ha.

Skyring (06:06pm Fri, May 30, 2014)

hoodoowytch (03:47pm Fri, May 30, 2014)

Seems to me no one is really running the show, or really gives a shit, and it's up to people to make such calls. Unfortunately, humans are fallible, corruptible and tend to be greedy shites that would kill another human being or any other creature purely for fun and profit. Messed up world, but that's how it goes.

A lot of anger and emotion and support for violence there. Looks to me like you'd take pleasure in seeing certain people executed in a painful fashion. To save taxpayers' money, you say. Is that not fun and profit right there?

Gladiators. Ha ha. Sorry that's what I pictured.

Bunny (04:14am Sun, Jun  1, 2014)

Skyring (01:13am Tue, May 20, 2014)

If they have been found guilty, then they are not innocent.

Not always, they could have been framed. Just because they've been found guilty by the law doesn't mean they are actually guilty.

This is why I disagree with imposing death penalty as punishment. There are a lot of people who are prosecuted and incarcerated for the crimes they did not commit. In my opinion, Blackstone's formulation in criminal law which states that, "It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer", is in line with this situation. This is because we could not take back the suffering we had already inflicted to another, or bring back a life already taken.

Plus, in Hinduism, there's something they call the Karmic cycle. Some defines karma as what goes around comes around, or what one send out in the universe is returned to back to the sender, sometimes a hundredfold. IMO, by imposing the death penalty, we create karmic energy that brings the past pains, in this case, death and suffering, into the future, which is higher crime rates. The cycle continues, until it is broken, say, by not imposing death penalty.

Well, that's my two cents about this topic. Sorry if the last bit is jumbled up and confusing. I've only started reading about Hinduism and Buddhism last month. :\

Skyring (06:06pm Fri, May 30, 2014)

hoodoowytch (03:47pm Fri, May 30, 2014)

Seems to me no one is really running the show, or really gives a shit, and it's up to people to make such calls. Unfortunately, humans are fallible, corruptible and tend to be greedy shites that would kill another human being or any other creature purely for fun and profit. Messed up world, but that's how it goes.

A lot of anger and emotion and support for violence there. Looks to me like you'd take pleasure in seeing certain people executed in a painful fashion. To save taxpayers' money, you say. Is that not fun and profit right there?

No, I think you misunderstand me...I would much rather see a peaceful world with everyone grooving on the Love vibe.  I take no pleasure in such things and it seems to me you did not read the whole post.

What I meant by no one really running the show was that I don't believe in a god who really gives a shit or else all the crap that goes on in the world wouldn't be happening. People have to make judgements on those who have no respect for life or another living being and murder for no other reason that they find pleasure in it. I do not think they should be mollycoddled or supported by the tax payer's money.

Some people can't be fixed.

At the end of the day all that matters is that we are doing what is best for society. I feel that society is better off without criminals, and society also shouldn't have to pay to keep them jailed.

I'm not saying that people should be killed for stealing a chocolate bar, but in some cases I think it is the best way to better our society.

bsthebenster (12:56am Sun, Jun 22, 2014)

At the end of the day all that matters is that we are doing what is best for society. I feel that society is better off without criminals, and society also shouldn't have to pay to keep them jailed.

I'm not saying that people should be killed for stealing a chocolate bar, but in some cases I think it is the best way to better our society.

I agree. The world is better off without VIOLENT criminals to be sure...unfortunately that would mean pretty much cleaning out all government officials and most military leaders in pretty much every country as well. Warmongers, murderers, pedophiles, rapists, serial killers, etc. are a bane to the societies in which they hunt and prey on innocents.

They can't be fixed. I, for one, don't want my tax dollars going to give the bastards room and board for the rest of their lives. Would much rather have my money to take care of my family's needs or go to actually help the betterment of my community as a whole. Feeding and housing monsters just doesn't jibe with the whole betterment of a community thing for me.

Some poor schmuck who steals food because they are starving, or breaks into an abandoned house to get out of the weather and find a place to sleep because they are homeless hardly is worthy of criminal status anymore than the stoner who is sitting on his front porch smoking a doob.

Sacrificing the lives of bad people to protect the good people? I don't even see where the debate is. I don't know why we take the feelings of these people into question, kill em all I say.

I am for death penalty for certain crimes. I am only for it if CLEAR UNMISTAKABLE guilt is established. A verdict based only on circumstantial evidence should not issue capital punishment.

Justice carries the idea of equality. The penalty should be equal to that of the crime. If one murders somebody then he by that very fact, ipso facto, has forfeited his own life.

Where I come from, death penalty is no longer done because the President is a Catholic. I think that this is a very terrible decision because the crime rate in my country is ballooning dramatically. Some of the crimes I recently heard of include:

1. A man kidnapped and raped an 11-month old baby, then left her body under a vehicle.
2. A driver raped and stabbed multiple times a woman who was just coming home from work.
3. Two men riding motorcycles shot a woman in the head because she didn't want them to take her bag.
4. Policemen stole money from a businessman in broad daylight in the middle of a busy highway.
5. Two men riding motorcycles went on a killing spree one night and killed many people.

See, crimes like these do not warrant leniency. The fact that these murderers think that the worst that will happen to them is spend time in jail is something that comforts their cold hearts. They do not fear the law. They do not fear punishment.

Perhaps, those people who haven't experienced the brutality of others can easily say that we should forgive criminals or not put them to death because we will just be doing the same. I dare you to talk to the family of victims. I dare you to look upon the remains of those criminals have killed for the most mundane reasons. I wonder if you will still feel this kindness for criminals.

The problem with society is that people do nothing to stop evil. They open their arms to the very evil they fear, cradle that, and let it spread among the population.

I don't agree with the death penalty which is why it has been abolished in many countries. There are several factors to consider, mainly do we have the right to decide who lives or dies?

It maybe a punishment, but does it deter, prevent or stop murders? The answer is 'No' as these crimes continue.

Forensic science and DNA has helped exonerate the innocent found guilty, either due to poor legal representation or flawed evidence. It has been known for the police to hide evidence that would have exonerated people in order to get a conviction, close the case, keep the victim's family happy and the media. This for the sacrifice of an innocent life.

Surely it is better to keep the guilty locked up, deprived of their freedom and those who are innocent, time to launch an appeal. Many innocents have died and many guilty walk free as the police in haste imprisoned the wrong person. Is that just?

No, I don't agree with the death penalty. There have been way too many instances in the last few years of exonerations due to new DNA evidence. We didn't have the means or the science years ago to test for DNA, and now that we do, there are many convictions being overturned. What happens when we execute a person for a crime they didn't commit? The government is essentially a murderer then. Even one innocent person killed is too many. I'm not religious at all, and I don't believe in killing someone, regardless of what they have done.

Additionally, death penalty convictions are staggeringly expensive. This is because when someone is sent to death row, the trial is not over. They are allowed to appeal, and appeal, and appeal, until their appeals run out. All of these court cases and lawyer fees are expensive. Better to sentence someone to life in prison.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyphillipserb/2014/05/01/considering-the-death-penalty-your-tax-dollars-at-work/

The only time killing someone is okay is in self defense. With that being said I hear some horrific stories of how people were murdered. Why should a cold blooded killer be shown mercy when they didn't!  They need to be killed!

I am not sure that we should judge who gets to live or die, that is the job for the man upstairs and only he should give and take life. I do think that punishment in a sever manner should be given to people who have murdered and destroyed others.
With all the technology that we have it should be easy to get enough evidence to ensure that someone is put there for the right reasons. Look at the Oscar Pistorius trial and OJ trial, we all know that they did it out of anger or jealousy and they got off easily, however I fully believe in karma and what you do comes back to ten times over, that is something that only nature can show them and judge them by.
In answering the question I dont think the death penalty is right because God is the only one that can give and take life away. We have no right to decide who lives and who dies.
I do think that life in prison should be given to those who have taken other lives.

Herald (11:03pm Tue, Sep 16, 2014)

Justice carries the idea of equality. The penalty should be equal to that of the crime. If one murders somebody then he by that very fact, ipso facto, has forfeited his own life.

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind


Really loving everyones points, but this is the only one I want to toy with right now ha ha.

I think capitol punishment is appropriate for 1st degree murder (premeditated).  I think if those convicted of 1st degree murder got the death penalty and executions actually took place rather than people just spending the rest of their lives on death row appealing endlessly it really would be a deterrent to crime.  If you know you are going to die if you get caught, wouldn't you think twice about doing it?  Maybe decide it isn't worth it?

In the end God has the final say on all of us, but he is not going to come down and punish a murderer. That is why we have judges and juries of our peers.

Matthew 26:52

Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

So if someone decides to play God and take someones life in cold blood, their life deserves to be taken. I am not against life in prison, but to say who are we to take someones life through the death penalty? Ask the murderer that question.

If you're going to throw god into this, then no one can punish or judge because we've all sinned.

Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone.

In other words we should forgive and not punish anyone.

I think there should be a punishment for death and criminal behaviour or elsewe will all go around doing whatever we want with no consequence. We need to know that there is punishment for crimes that are commited but death is something that should not be on the table, even if it is a murderer, life imprisonment is what they should get. Their real punishment will come after that. We all sin yes, but not everyone takes a life and to lock someone in a cage forever is far better than knowing that we took it upon ourselves to do the same thing.

First I'm going to always bring God into it because I'm a Christian. Second I think it's very easy for people to say who are we to decide who lives or dies, when it has not happened to them or have not been close to someone to whom this has happened to. I know people whose loved ones have been taken from them and it is beyond tough. I think it should be left up to the victims family what happens to the murderer. This is the last time I'm going to post on this subject, if someone takes something as precious as life in cold blood if you sew murder then that's what you should reap.