Hi,
I've been thinking about giving up on creative writing so that I can focus on learning how to write non-fiction. The difficulty is that I hate non-fiction so much that I have never managed to write more than a paragraph or two without giving up in disgust. It feels just not so right for me.

When I think of creative writing there's the question of am I really good enough to actually make a living from it? So you see guys I'm torn between being practical [writing non-fiction and make money from it though I hate it] and doing creative writing because I like it.

To help me decide, I'd like any of you to read the first half of a script I've been writing so you guys can tell me if I am an OK story-teller. It's in pdf format so supposing I post the attachment would any of you download and read it then post your feedback here on the board or via pm?

You can upload it to the forum as a PDF but I'd prefer straight text because we can never be 100% sure of safety. Also, I havent got the PDF embedding to work (so it automatically shows it) yet.

You can copy and paste it to a post here if you like?


Also who says you can't be creative with non fiction? You can't make things up but that doesn't mean you can't have fun with it. Take www.cracked.com for example. Cracked is marketed as a humour site...but it's not. It's a knowledge site with biting sarcasm all through it. Read some of their articles! Maybe that will help?

Also look into "the very bloody history of great Britain" (SUPER DOOPER fun book), "Eats, shoots and leaves", and there's plenty more . Non fiction has a bad rap, but it's one of my favourites. Especially when people get creative with it .

Thanks for that Bunny. It sure gives me some pep to at least think positively about non-fiction. I like reading the articles on cracked. Wouldn't mind writing like those guys do.

Anyway, about the script. It's about 37 pages and it uses politically incorrect language that would make it unsavory for most people.

I'll post the script in the plays and scripts sections but I'm sure the format will get pretty messed up.

p.s I'll take a look at the books you mentioned.

There's a very messy way to do it quick and dirty... on the post page click the button that looks like this: it will turn on the WYSIWYG editor. Paste from the PDF and it SHOULD in theory keep the formatting. If it's telling you it's too big, I want you to email me the code [ muther goose 2001 without spaces at gmail ]. I will tidy it up for you to make it smaller (removing the "font" and "size" BBC tags mostly)....then send it back and you can post.

But I will do it tomorrow because I am going to bed now ha ha. Also note, there's an "adult" icon to pick, so they can't complain ha ha.

I screwed up. I edited the file and posted it but the font is almost too faint to read. Maybe you could help me fix that up by changing the font?

Can you send me the PDF? I made it bigger but if the formatting is still off, send it on to me .

The formatting looks good. Thanks for the font tweak. But I'll send you the script anyway because I'd like to hear your thoughts about . . . the question. Proceed or do something else.

Hey I've been meaning to get to this but I've been wrecked with migraines. I just wanted you to know I'm not avoiding it it's just kind of been put on the backburner until my head wants to function and not hurt/be dizzy.

I'm sorry to hear that. I know about migraines so I . . . understand.

Just, take your time.

Rainman (04:25am Fri, Mar 14, 2014)

Hi,
I've been thinking about giving up on creative writing so that I can focus on learning how to write non-fiction. The difficulty is that I hate non-fiction so much that I have never managed to write more than a paragraph or two without giving up in disgust. It feels just not so right for me.

When I think of creative writing there's the question of am I really good enough to actually make a living from it? So you see guys I'm torn between being practical [writing non-fiction and make money from it though I hate it] and doing creative writing because I like it.

To help me decide, I'd like any of you to read the first half of a script I've been writing so you guys can tell me if I am an OK story-teller. It's in pdf format so supposing I post the attachment would any of you download and read it then post your feedback here on the board or via pm?

First, your script...the premise is certainly intriguing, I'm impressed by the characters (they stick to my mind, which my brain is usually slow to do), could use a little trimming (I don't get the significance of the time skip or the love scene), and I'm not personally knowledgeable about the historical accuracy of that time period--but all in all, I'd say you're an okay storyteller.

As for the big question in this thread...I'd say, don't do non-fiction. Hate and disgust can be insurmountable obstacles to any learning experience. If you were merely out of your comfort zone but you were willing to try out of curiosity, that would be another matter, but if you hate it, you know you hate it but think you should do it anyway--in my experience, at least, that creates either blocks or terrible work that has the potential to lock you in to a feedback loop of loathing.

That said, you could ease into it. This topic you just made, this is non-fiction, and you've lasted for three paragraphs. Diary entries would be a filtered experience, but not fiction. Even opinion pieces wouldn't be fiction. I'm sure your choice to set your screenplay in the place and time that it's set in, came from research. Consolidating that knowledge, explaining what so-and-so event was inspired by, that would be nonfiction already in concepts in your mind.

EllyMarks,
Thanks for your feedback and advice.

To be honest I never thought I could write decent non-fiction. I didn't actually consider the fact that writing something like this could be in a way be classified as non-fiction. So, I suppose the best way to work my way into that kind of writing is doing opinion pieces about anything - - politics, sports, religion, etc.

Once that is done and I'm a little bit more comfortable writing nonfiction, maybe I could switch to doing informational articles but . . . I'll do that in my free time. From now on I'm going to concentrate on working towards becoming a better screenwriter.

Once again, Elly, thank you. 

So glad I could help!

In doing opinion pieces, of course, there would be at least a few lines setting up what you're having an opinion about, so that readers aren't totally lost. That's going to be nonfiction, informational.

Looking forward to your screenplays! I'm curious if you've ever considered scripting for stageplays or graphic novels?

Rainman (04:01am Mon, Mar 24, 2014)

I'm sorry to hear that. I know about migraines so I . . . understand.

Just, take your time.

You seem to have gotten it to display way better than I could have!

I agree with Elly on all points. Especially the opinion pieces. You can post those in blogs, essays, and the journalism section . If you post it as an essay I will probably pounce on it because to be honest I adore essays.

EllyMarks (01:35pm Wed, Mar 26, 2014)

So glad I could help!

Looking forward to your screenplays! I'm curious if you've ever considered scripting for stageplays or graphic novels?

I find stage plays to be rather boring so I've never attempted to even write them for fun.

As for graphic novels, now that you mention them, I think I'll consider them as a possible market for a completed script. It's just - - I don't know if a script written for the graphic novel market should be a little different structurally. And now the big question, does one need to be witty or funny to write stuff the graphic novel readers would like?

p.s Bunny, you'll probably see one of my essays. Soon.

YAY! Essays!


I don't see why it matters how it's formatted. A graphic novel artist is the one that actually puts it on the page?

I read somewhere--forgot where exactly, sorry--there are actually two ways to "write" a graphic novel. One is the Marvel Method, wherein the writer only writes up a summary of the events that are going to happen, and then it's up to the artist to draw the panels the way they will. A third person sticks the speech bubbles into the illustrated panels, and fills out those speech bubbles. I imagine the final result can be a bit of a Frankenstein monster, but it works, since comic books are known for taking this somewhat campy, stilted flow that can still be immensely entertaining.

The other method is the Full Script, which I suppose is formatted like a screenplay, except that instead of the action cues referring to cinematographical/audio effects, it can refer to panels and dialogue bubbles/boxes, what the reader can see or not see...

In my copy of Neil Gaiman's The Sandman: Dream Country, it contains the full script for the "Calliope" installation. Gaiman specifically, repeatedly stated in the action/description parts that he didn't want the character of Calliope to be sexualized in her imprisonment--so now I know he's not to blame for the panels that showed Calliope doing this strange upset-but-sexy dance while she's sitting around in her place of captivity.

As for whether it has to be funny: graphic novels are now called graphic novels because "comic book" doesn't quite describe similarly-formatted stories that have little to no actual comedy. Persepolis by Marjane Satrapi, and Blankets by Craig Thompson are two of my favorite examples of super serious, heavy stuff told in graphic novel format. Then again, those writers had the advantage of also being artists.

Alan Moore had to fight with his illustrator over the mean things Moore was making Queen Victoria say in his Jack-the-Ripper retelling, From Hell. I'm almost certain that started out with a full script, even though the art gets purposely doodle-y sometimes, because about 10% of that doorstopper graphic novel is Moore's research notes on every scene.

Two or so years back I read an article that was aimed at getting screenwriters to stop relying on production companies as the only market for their scripts. The writer suggested that all screenwriters should learn how to draw so they could make money from doing comics.

I may give that a thought.

Learning how to draw can take at most four years. That's not so bad if the after that I can be able to create a graphic novel on my own. What motivates me even more is the fact that I know a screenwriter who's written over 60 scripts, none of which has ever been sold. The guy is over 80 and he still writes hoping that one day . . .

If only he'd spent four years learning how to draw it could be an entirely different story I'm telling now.

Rainman (01:47am Sat, Mar 29, 2014)

Learning how to draw can take at most four years. That's not so bad if the after that I can be able to create a graphic novel on my own. What motivates me even more is the fact that I know a screenwriter who's written over 60 scripts, none of which has ever been sold. The guy is over 80 and he still writes hoping that one day . . .

If only he'd spent four years learning how to draw it could be an entirely different story I'm telling now.

You can also have friends who draw who you can get excited enough about your story to help you bring it to life now and get paid for it later if (when, WHEN) it takes off. Or even do a sample and team up to get Kickstarted.

Or you can hire an artist over an online website job. It can get expensive, at least $25 per page if it's not colored (some unscrupulous websites pay artists much lower), but since everyone's freelancing you can pace yourself, hire other artists to experiment with style...

I'm unsure if the big graphic novel publishing companies do stuff like slush piles, as in actively seek scripts that can be made into their next publication. They totally should. Indie stuff might be in now, but of course it's difficult.

That's all just going onto this line of planning alternatives, though. If screenplays are calling you right now, then that's your calling

Heading the indie direction way could be the best option for me. I hate having to write something and have to keep it in some  file because no one was interested in it or they'd consider it in future because . . .

That's the kind of stuff you're likely to hear.

But whilst talking about options what of starting a site/blog to publish the graphic novel page by page as it's written and illustrated? I'm willing to take chances if there could be even the remotest possibility that I can draw attention either from genuine readers who love graphic novels or industry pros who might be interested in having me do something for them. 

Rainman (04:50am Mon, Mar 31, 2014)

whilst talking about options what of starting a site/blog to publish the graphic novel page by page as it's written and illustrated? I'm willing to take chances if there could be even the remotest possibility that I can draw attention either from genuine readers who love graphic novels or industry pros who might be interested in having me do something for them.

There are two webcomics that I follow, Sinfest and The Order of The Stick, that I followed before they were published and now I own their paperback copies I didn't even consider myself like one of those hipster indie supporters, but it's just that those things do get around by word of mouth, and that builds a fanbase.

Basically: I vote yes, only because I'd seen in happen.

I truly believe that in this age of information, the industry protocol isn't so set in its ways that deviating from it is such an infinitesimally small chance of success anymore. Sure, it'll still be difficult than just having an editor or publisher (or producer, director, whatever) believe in you and have a contract signed--and that's still great when that happens--but, you know, in this day and age? Bootstraps just might be easier to pull...

I read probably 50+ indie webcomics

Well, then, there's a possibility that one can get readers if the stuff that's created is OK. In fact, this will give me a chance to hone my non-fiction writing skills.

My plan now is to get myself a blog, start writing articles about comics, graphic novels and other relevant topics. This will be the sole means of attracting people who are interested in comics and graphic novels to the blog. Call it promotional material if you like. While doing that, I'll be trying to make friends with artists who have some free time in their hands. Once I find one who I can get along with we can get straight into business knowing that a firm foundation has been laid [since we'll already have an audience] and hope that they will tell their friends about us.

It's a long shot but it's much better to try something and fail rather than do nothing and wonder what could have happened if you'd taken a chance.

You can get readers if your stuff is not drawn perfectly too....

http://www.nataliedee.com/

http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/

http://xkcd.com/

https://www.explosm.net/comics/3511/

http://www.ragestache.com/

Etc etc etc

I think you have received some great advice already but especially the cracked spin on non-fiction writing. But I thought I would give my two cents anyway. I would say that even if right NOW you are not good enough a creative writer to make any money if you love it enough (which it sounds like you do) you can become good enough to make a living doing creative work you just need to be dedicated. Which is much easier to do when it doesn't infuriate you.

If you choose something just because of the money you will burnout. If you choose something because you love it the money will follow. Just continue to write creatively and don't be so hard on yourself.